440 swap '101'

Mad-Max · Mar 16, 2018

...and I just ordered the programmer from Sean at Hemifever. He's setting me up with both an 89 and 91 octane tune - the 91 tune should result in a nice 'seat of the pants' improvement, and I asked to set the lockup to hit no earlier than 2500 rpm. If it works as expected then I'll vmost likely not replace the 46RE with an RH, which means a lot less down time and work. I'm excited to see how it works!

Mad-Max · Apr 2, 2018

So the more I drive the truck and the more stuff I add to it the more I'm realizing I'm surely going to need bigger guns under the hood, and since I like a good mystery (misery?) I'm pondering the 440 option a bit more.

I've decided that regardless of which engine is in it I'm going to want overdrive. Without overdrive I'll have to run 4.10s with the 40s to get the highway speeds I'll want, and that means revving the engine up to about 2600 to do 75 mph, and we plan to drive this truck for hours on the highway with the cruise set, and I don't want to spin it that far unnecessarily. Plus 4.10's and 40s would be pretty doggy around town. Nope, as big and heavy as the truck will be I want deeper gears to get it all moving nice and easy. 5.38's it will be...which means 'overdrive'.

According to Advanced Adapters a GearVendor overdrive will not mate to the back of an Atlas 4-sp t-case, so the 727/Atlas/GV idea is shot (booo - I was kinda hopeful on that one). And I'm not planning to run a 205 so the GV is still out.

Nope, there are a ton more RE transmissions out there vs RHs so I'll likely retain the 46RE, and if I drop in a manual valve body it makes all of the 'electronic' problems moot, and I'll also enjoy the perk or retaining the factory crank signal, and I'll fake the cam signal and likely retain everything inside the way I'd like.

I was leaning towards using the ultrabell for the big block -to- small block conversion, but it occurred to me that the bellhousing on a lockup trans is...I think...'deeper' than a non-lockup trans because of the uber thick converter...and the ultrabellhousings are made for a 727 - a non-lockup trans. I called JP conversions to confirm and I'm waiting to hear back.

I like the adapter ring method better anyway, and I just spoke with the guys at PATC and they confirmed if I use the adapter ring I can also use the existing 46RE flex plate which if my research is correct is externally balanced for the 360 - appears the 360's converter is neutrally balanced (not weighted) - it looks to all be in the flexplate, and that's cool. Because the converter is neutrally balanced I think I can just use a standard 46RE converter for a 5.9....but I think I'd be wise to get a HD converter to handle the 440's power. If I use the RE tranny (a 'lockup' tranny) I'll need a lockup converter, and if a 46RE flexplate bolts up to a 440 crankshaft...then I think that's it. The trick is going to be in the flexplate.

I called the guys at Hughes Engines and they quickly referred me to Robert at A&A Transmission in Indianapolis, and the good news is there are a couple options to get what I'd need: a custom balanced 46RE flex plate to match the 440 and then run a neutral balanced RE converter, or neutrally balance the engine and run a neutral flexplate.

I'm not certain about the big block starter-to-converter-ring-gear-engagement tho - need to look further into that.

So there's ways to do it, which at this stage is all I need to know.

I also confirmed that the engine does not need to be running for the HVAC doors to operate - they move with the key at run but engine not running, so that's good.

Mad-Max · Apr 3, 2018

yo Motohead1 - seems I can't PM you directly? Could you PM me with your e-mail or number - I'd like to chat a bit more about some 'electronics' in your swap

or you can e-mail me at falcon426@hotmail.com

- Sam

RXT · Apr 3, 2018

Mad-Max said:
….According to Advanced Adapters a GearVendor overdrive will not mate to the back of an Atlas 4-sp t-case, so the 727/Atlas/GV idea is shot (booo - I was kinda hopeful on that one). And I'm not planning to run a 205 so the GV is still out.

Yeah, the only alternative I see is to get the GV to 203 adapter, then do a 203/205 doubler for the super low, low range…however it's gonna make for a very L*O*N*G drivetrain. In fact it will be long enough that you'll probably have to do that carrier bearing idea to the front d-shaft, instead of the rear.. On the flip side of that coin, the GV will allow you to split every gear, effectively making a 727 3 speed, into a 6 speed with two reverse gears!

With the desire to have o/d, it significantly complicates the 440 swap idea. Which also means you'll need a bigger budget. I was looking around to see what 440 to 46RE adapters exist and I couldn't find any. Even 47RH/RE adapters aren't easy to find. (Funny, I could had swore some existed) The only other idea I can suggest is, do you know an incredibly good machinist who can fab up an adapter for you?

Ed

Mad-Max · Apr 3, 2018

RXT said:
With the desire to have o/d, it significantly complicates the 440 swap idea. Which also means you'll need a bigger budget. I was looking around to see what 440 to 46RE adapters exist and I couldn't find any. Even 47RH/RE adapters aren't easy to find. (Funny, I could had swore some existed) The only other idea I can suggest is, do you know an incredibly good machinist who can fab up an adapter for you?

Ed

...it's not really more complicated, and yah it's a bit more expense, but it allows me to do what I'd want - I'll be using one of these 'Profiled Adapter Kits' from PATC (or other vendor), simple and effective - https://www.transmissioncenter.com/...ock-361-383-400-413-426-440-to-dodge-small-block-518-transmission-6-bolt-crank/

RXT · Apr 4, 2018

Mad-Max said:
…it's not really more complicated, and yah it's a bit more expense, but it allows me to do what I'd want - I'll be using one of these 'Profiled Adapter Kits' from PATC (or other vendor), simple and effective - https://www.transmissioncenter.com/...ock-361-383-400-413-426-440-to-dodge-small-block-518-transmission-6-bolt-crank/

OK, I seen the site but missed the adapter in my search. It's kinda buried in there…. Well, ok then. So long as an adapter exists, you're in business. Did you say you already have the 440??

Ed

Mad-Max · Apr 4, 2018

RXT said:
...Did you say you already have the 440??

Ed

..."affirmative"

- it probably needs gone through...but it might not - it's from a 79 motorcoach and only had 49k miles on it - it's been sitting for a while with the valve train loosened...

it'll be a long while before I (might) pull this trigger, but it is cool knowing the job is probably doable without too much pain...

RXT · Apr 4, 2018

Cool deal. It probably does need to be gone thru. Those old Winnebago 440s ran a really low compression ratio and were awful low on hp. (Probably way less than the 360 in your Dakota) but they did make some torque.

Ed

Mad-Max · Apr 4, 2018

one of the nice things about the low compression engines is they tend to run cool, and they'll run on any octane pump gas, both of which are particularly useful when crawling up a mountain in double-low gear with the engine barely above idle most of the day. In those situations I don't need more engine - the gears handle that. It's the highway speeds where the power is really good to have...tho without some real power I'll bury the truck in the deep sand. Meh...when necessary I'll upgrade those cubic inches somehow

RXT · Apr 4, 2018

My guess is you probably won't need to mess with the bottom end. I would predict that all you would need to work on, are the heads. You could bump up the compression a bit (Keeping the low compression pistons) do an RV cam, maybe bigger valves, a bit of port 'n polish, a standard dual plane, headers and you should be good to go. That I think should put that engine in the 450+ ft-lb range, or just inside Cummins territory.

Ed

Mad-Max · Apr 4, 2018

RXT said:
That I think should put that engine in the 450+ ft-lb range, or just inside Cummins territory.

....see how easy that was to write? - That's why I'm SO jazzed about doing a big block - the power is just SO easy to have. If I use a 46RE with the adapter I'll have a 100% factory-functional crank sensor, and I think I know how to steal signal from that to get cam signal, which is 90% of the battle.

The custom engine mounts and exhaust and all that is pretty standard fab work. I'll have a stand-alone Howell EFI system and a MSD Ready-to-Run ignition system - both completely independent from the PCM or any factory electronics.

My 440 has a factory A/C compressor on it already, and ideally I'd like to plumb it into the Dakota's A/C system, which would eliminate the need for a custom v-groove pulley on the Dakota's compressor or a whole serpentine conversion, which I've done in the past and wasn't thrilled about them.

I'll plan to modify the 440 accessory brackets to use the Dakota's alternator and power steering pump.

What's interesting is a 440 swap, a stroker, or a supercharger are all in the $6000 ball park - it's the level of effort I'm willing to put into it and the level of suck I'm willing to accept if it doesn't work out that I have to really consider...

not that there's much to see but here's the engine, plucked from a 49,000-mile Motorcoach, with a set of Schumacher headers from a previous machine -

RXT · Apr 5, 2018

Mad-Max said:
….see how easy that was to write?

:devil: Who cares about horsepower? It's all about da TORQUE

My 440 has a factory A/C compressor on it already, and ideally I'd like to plumb it into the Dakota's A/C system, which would eliminate the need for a custom v-groove pulley on the Dakota's compressor or a whole serpentine conversion, which I've done in the past and wasn't thrilled about them.

That looks like an old York, if it's good, it would make a great air pump…but yeah you could plumb it into your A/C, if you can find someone to make a set of new pressure lines that have the correct ends that you'll need….

I'll plan to modify the 440 accessory brackets to use the Dakota's alternator and power steering pump.

Can you use that alternator?? And that PS pump would probably work w/ your planned SAS

Ed

Mad-Max · Apr 9, 2018

....might be a bit spendy, but this serpentine conversion kit from CVF would allow for a big block serpentine conversion while also maybe possibly allowing the use of the factory Dakota AC compressor and power steering pump, and I think the alternator as well.

The folks at CVF wrote back with the following info:

"We use two different compressors depending on the kit you choose. Either the Sanden 7B10, or the 508. We also use two different P/S pumps. Either the GM Type II / TC or Saginaw P series.

7B10 and Type II work together
508 and Saginaw work together"

The kit says it uses a GM CS130 style alternator, a GM Type II power steering pump, and a 'Peanut Style' 7B10 compressor - and I've no idea if either of those are 'compatible' with a Dakota's factory plumbing or wiring, even with custom AC hoses or adapters or modified alternator wiring....tho I'm willing to believe it could be made to work all per factory specs.

The 7B10 AC compressor is also known as a 'peanut style' unit, and if that type of compressor will interchange with the factory Dakota unit, which I think is a Sanden SD7H15 unit, that this kit could be a major bonus for anyone wanting to do a big block swap.

nethumb:

https://www.cvfracing.com/stealth-b...rpentine-system-for-big-block-mopar-ac-power-steering-alternator-all-inclusive/

RXT · Apr 10, 2018

Hmm, not knowing the details, I thought I'd add my thoughts. According to my friend who has been an HVAC specialist, A/Cs don't really care what compressor it uses, so long as sized correctly, lubed correctly and works. Most automotive compressors are similar or somewhat close in size or capacity. I don't think running a GM unit will be a big problem, so long as you have lines that will fit. A similar situation applies to the PS pump. All it does is pump oil at high enough pressure to help steer the tires, no matter the make. The thing you'll probably need are the correct hose ends. The same applies to the alternator. The good thing about those "GM" parts (which BTW are actually third party components) is that they will be easier to find and probably cheaper to purchase.

The one concern I have with that particular serpentine system is, it looks like it adds a few inches to the length of the engine. You can see this by how the new engine pulley bolts onto the existing harmonic balancer which normally doubles as a pulley. If it's several inches longer, you might run out of real estate in front of the engine, or find this to be a very tight fit similar to a Cummins swap… you might want to ask them about clearance.

Ed

Mad-Max · Apr 10, 2018

good inputs Ed - lots of good info to ponder. As I come across more nuggets of info I'll post 'em up, and I encourage anyone else with inputs to do so as well

Mad-Max · Aug 13, 2018

RXT said:
Transmission, If it were me, I'd opt for a 47RH as the 440 is capable of a lot more torque. The problem will be finding one, or you can do what i did. get a 47RE and install a manual valve body in it and decomputerize it….. You might want to think about a manual NV4500 ???

…okay - I need some savvy clarification from you Ed...or anyone else that may know :nerd: -

Bottom line question: Using a SMR big block-to-small block adapter kit, will a 47RH bolt up 'clean' to a 440...? I think the answer is 'yes' - my theory is explained below.

IIRC, the 47RH transmissions (overdrive with lockup converter) were only available behind a V10 or a Cummins - the only differences between the two versions being the governor weights and converters - possibly the VB but I haven't confirmed that.

Next, IIUC both versions have identical bellhousing bolt patterns, and I think the V10 version bolted up directly to the back of the V10 block (?), while the Cummins version required an adapter to bolt up to the Cummins engine. I know a V10 47RH will bolt up directly to the Cummins adapter.

What I need confirmation on is this - did the 47RH require an adapter to bolt up to the V10 block, or did it bolt up directly to the block? If the answer is 'yes a 47RH bolts up directly to a V10 block' then my evil plan may yet work :woot:

Next, while I think the answer is 'yes', do the V10 engines share the same bell housing bolt pattern as the same era (and likely older) 360/318?

I think the V10 and Cummins do share the same 8-bolt flexplate and conveter bolt pattern, but that won't matter for what I'm thinking.

Lastly, if my theory is correct, then a 47RH could literally 'replace' a 46RH (...or 46RE :devil

behind a Magnum 360, which means if I were to use a SMR big block-to-small block adapter kit, a 47RH would bolt up directly to a big block, enabling me to take Ed's advice and have the very strong 47RH trans behind what would very likely become a very powerful big block.

Lastly....do I really 'need' the 47RH, or will a 46RH...presuming it's rebuilt with some quality hardware... hold up just fine to a warm big block?

I think I've found a 46RH here locally (and I'll probably just pick it up anyway) - I'm just trying to decide if I should hold out for a 47RH? If all of my babbling above is sound then I'll look for a 47RH too.

- Sam

RXT · Aug 13, 2018

Mad-Max said:
…okay - I need some savvy clarification from you Ed...or anyone else that may know :nerd: -

Bottom line question: Using a SMR big block-to-small block adapter kit, will a 47RH will bolt up 'clean' to a 440...? I think the answer is 'yes' - my theory is explained below.

IIRC, the 47RH transmissions (overdrive with lockup converter) were only available behind a V10 or a Cummins - the only differences between the two versions being the governor weights and converters - possibly the VB but I haven't confirmed that.

Next, IIUC both versions have identical bellhousing bolt patterns, and I think the V10 version bolted up directly to the back of the V10 block (?), while the Cummins version required an adapter to bolt up to the Cummins engine. I know a V10 47RH will bolt up directly to the Cummins adapter.

What I need confirmation on is this - did the 47RH require an adapter to bolt up to the V10 block, or did it bolt up directly to the block? If the answer is 'yes a 47RH bolts up directly to a V10 block' then my evil plan may yet work :woot:

Next, while I think the answer is 'yes', do the V10 engines share the same bell housing bolt pattern as the same era (and likely older) 360/318?

I think the V10 and Cummins do share the same 8-bolt flexplate and conveter bolt pattern, but that won't matter for what I'm thinking.

Lastly, if my theory is correct, then a 47RH could literally 'replace' a 46RH (...or 46RE :devil behind a Magnum 360, which means if I were to use a SMR big block-to-small block adapter kit, a 47RH would bolt up directly to a big block, enabling me to take Ed's advice and have the very strong 47RH trans behind what would very likely become a very powerful big block.

Lastly....do I really 'need' the 47RH, or will a 46RH...presuming it's rebuilt with some quality hardware... hold up just fine to a warm big block?

I think I've found a 46RH here locally (and I'll probably just pick it up anyway) - I'm just trying to decide if I should hold out for a 47RH? If all of my babbling above is sound then I'll look for a 47RH too.

- Sam

Hey Sam, I'll try to offer the best answers I can.

The 47RH was only installed behind the Cummins & V10. The bell pattern is shared only between those two engines and is unique. Another way of saying it is it's not a small block pattern nor a big block pattern. The 47RH/RE does bolt directly to the V10, however the Cummins uses two different [Chrysler] adapters. One is shallow (For the non LU 727) and the other is deep (For the lock up TC of the 47RH/RE) The differences between the 47RH gas/diesel is, they use different torque converters, and the governor is probably weighted or adjusted differently. Valve bodies are basically the same.

After a quick look-see, I think there might be more of a problem trying to find an adapter to go from a 440 to a 47RH. I looked up SMR and I didn't find their adapter for that combo, so there won't be a "clean" install there. The only options I find is to do an extensive mod to adapt either an Ultrabell or TCI bell housing which will require you cut off the bell from a 47RH. It's not the type of surgery for the faint of heart. My approach would be to build your own adapter. Then figure out the flex plate and torque converter (Which might be adapted from a V10)

Now, the 46RH might be a better option here because that one will more than likely have the small block pattern which will should be easier to find an adapter for. A quick search showed ones (518) available from PATC, TCI, and SMR

As for strength, The 46RH should be fine with a mild BB and it's upgradable too. Remember, the 46RH is based on the 727 which were often used behind BBs and were found behind the first Cummins, rated to 400lb-ft.

Ed

Mad-Max · Aug 13, 2018

thanks Ed - I'll pick up this 46RH if I can, and then if I decide to go big block I'll have the proper tranny to go with it. I had a 46RH (A-518 non-lockup) in one of my 1st Gen Cummins trucks, and while it was the beefier version of the gasser unit it put 630tq to the tires and never broke, and I'm thinking I can upgrade the gasser unit to 'diesel' guts and gain some strength and holding power there - so I'm thinking that should be fine

Cheers

Mad-Max · Aug 28, 2018

...alright - it's "on" - I'm pressing forward with a big block swap

. I plan to have this truck for many many years, and at our home altitude of 7000 ft it's already lacking for power, and once I bolt up the 40s and the topper and the cage and the roof tent and fill it with the family and all the gear plus possibly a small pull-behind camper trailer...well with a 360 I'll need low range just to get out of the garage - so...gonna want a lot more power, and the three options are 1) stroker 360, 2) supercharger, and 3) 440, and after doing the R&D and weighing the pros and cons, the 440 swap is in my mind the best bang for the bucks, plus there's the coolness of pouring some serious old school 'hot rod' DNA into the truck, and that scratches a pretty serious 'itch' I've always had, so big block swap it is. It'll add in several months to a year of saving up more cabbage, but in the end I think it will all be well worth it.

I plucked the 440 from a 79 Winnebago with 49k miles on the clock, and it'll remain 'stock' with the stump-puller cam and low compression, which should enable it to run nice and cool at 12,000 ft altitude on any pump gas I find. It'll get a Howell EFI system and a MSD Ready-to-Run ignition system along with the other typical off-road accessories.

To keep things simple I've decided to forgo any/all requirements for the crank and/or cam signals and I'll work out any gremlins along the way. Something odd tho is I went out to the truck, turned the ignition to 'run', and everything inside including the HVAC stuff, all seem to function normally. The heater doors swing from one mode to the other, the fan blows as it should, when the A/C is turned on the sound changes so I'm presuming there's things moving as they should with it on, door locks, windows - all function as if all that's required is 12v switched power as activated by the key switch. I don't know what the crank and cam signals further 'activate' but I'll figure that out later on.

I also decided to go with a 46RH trans, which I just got yesterday...still bolted up under a complete '95 Grand Cherokee with a 5.2 that was being parted out that I got for $400.

Next I'm going with the SMR conversion kit (not the ultrabell) - the kit is was ordered with a standard big block SFI flexplate balanced for my externally balanced 440, and I'll use a good neutral balanced converter for a 318. I'll alter the chassis and interior wiring as necessary.

I'm going to fab up my own dash panel (one of my favorite mods), the trans will get a Winnebago floor shifter (another of my favorite mods) along with two toggles for OD and LU - which is how I did it on my last truck and loved it. Speedo signal will come direct from the t-case and tach will come from the dizzy.

Next, wanting to retain 'modern' accessories I want to go with the CVF big block Mopar serpentine system, which will allow me to use newer A/C pump, pwr steering pump, and alternator. The kit is an 8-rib system which uses a 7B10/134a A/C compressor and a GM Type 2 power steering pump, and GM CS130 alternator (a 1-wire unit I believe)…none of which directly 'match' the Dakota's existing hardware, but I'm fairly sure with a set of custom hoses the 7B10 compressor will with fine with the Dakota's A/C system, and I'm also fairly sure the GM 10wire alternator will charge the Dakota's battery(s). The GM type-2 power steering pump will be simple enough to use as all of that will come from PSC and they'll make any kind of kit I need. Not sure yet what the application (make/model etc) is for the 7B10 A/C compressor but I'll find that out.

So...that's where I'm at, and in the end I'm sure the truck will have all the power it'll ever need to get wherever I want to take it, including cruising the highways at 80 mph.

I'll keep this post updated as I go along. And as always, any input is always welcome.

- Sam

Motohead1 · Aug 29, 2018

Sounds good but I would atleast consider a set of aluminum aftermarket heads. Even the cheapest stuff out there will flow tons more than the stock iron stuff not to mention the weight savings.

440 swap '101'

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