Howdy from Colorado

Mad-Max · Apr 1, 2017

tone-ring delete diagram -

so I'm planning a SAS (front solid axle swap) on my Dakota and will be replacing the front axle with a Ford D60 front and the rear with a GM 14 bolt, which means no tone ring. So naturally I'm researching how to retain the speedo/trans shifting/cruise etc after I delete the factory rear tone ring from the equation.

To start with, I presume in factory configuration the rear axle hardware is providing the speedometer signal and not the transmission? So the ABS sensor above the rear axle tone ring produces a 'speed' signal to feed to the PCM for 'all things speedometer', and the ABS computer (CAB?) is sending the signal via the [white/or] wire into the white plug on the PCM, correct?

Came across a few threads where folks used the Dakota Digital SGI-5 to convert transmission signal into readable signal spliced into the ABS/PCM. IIUC, the idea is to route the speed signal from the transmission speed sensor into the SGI box, and then splice the output signal into both the PCM and ABS speedo signal wire, which if the SGI box is adjusted properly will correctly 'tell' the speedo and transmisison how and when to operate/shift, etc?

What I don't understand is this - is we're now going to use the transmission signal to send into the SGI box....what effects will there be on the transmission electronics? Does the transmission generate its own signal via the speed sensor (via the existing [blue] and [green/bk] wires) which tells the transmission when to shift? If so, we're tapping into one of those two wires to send 'speed' to the SGI box, which is converting it to the proper speedo signal necessary for both the ABS and PCM to operate the speedometer, cruise etc? The transmission doesn't use that speedo signal - it's all internal to the tranny, ja?

I made this diagram - not 100% certain I have the correct photos, and I'm looking for a bit of clarification.

First, assuming I have the correct pics, which plug on the CAB (Controller Anti-lock Brake) contains the [white/or] wire that is spliced into the SGI output?

Second, the two wires coming the trans speed sensor - one is [blue], the other [green/bk] - I think from reading one is signal the other ground - which is which?

One thing I don't really understand is why the PCM doesn't use the transmission sped signal to begin with?

Anything else glaring or incorrect? Pls let me know if there are correction necessary and I'll update the schematic for future folks doing a similar project.

Cheers,
- Sam

RXT · Apr 1, 2017

Well, wiring, electronics and computers are my weak points. I don't do them well. My approach would be completely different. For example, in the Dana 70 that I used for my Dakota, it had a tone ring for the speed sensor, just like the one that was in the 8.25 that came out. Since the D70 originally came out of another Dodge, chances are that the speed sensor maybe the same. In any case, most speed sensors are nothing more than fancy hall effect sensors. If you happened across a rear axle that happened to already have a tone ring, or you wanted to put one in, you'll be in business. You might even be able to use that expensive looking Dakota Digital unit

……Now, the way I told you how I might have done it…I didn't do that either. Since my truck involved a Cummins swap on top of an axle swap, I took a simpler route. I decided not to worry about having cruise control, the transmission has a manual valve body in it, and for the speed-o, I'll be using an Autometer gauge and sensor. (There is also the option to use a GPS signal too)

Ed

Mad-Max · Apr 1, 2017

I have two dana 70's that I could source a tone ring from along with the plug etc, so if machining a D70 tone ring to fit a 14 bolt isn't too difficult (I haven't got too deep into that research that yet) then I'll try that before splicing into the harness. I'll have to tear open the 14 bolt to do the gears and locker anyway so that'd be a good time to do that.

At the same time tho, I've used the DD control boxes before and they're pretty slick. I've used them for generating a solid diesel tach signal - both using the hall effect (tooth-counter) version and the W-wire style from the alternator. If my wiring diagram is close to correct then it should be pretty simple, and wiring isn't intimidating for me much anymore

Mad-Max · Apr 2, 2017

so did some research and installing a D70 tone ring on the 14 bolt doesn't look too bad - might go that route. I'm now trying to determine if the D70 tone ring and the 8.25 tone ring are 'compatible'...I have to believe there are less teeth on the 8.25 ring than the D70 so there's likely a discrepancy already right there...?

RXT · Apr 3, 2017

There will be discrepancies. I would suspect as you do, The D70 tone ring would be larger and therefore have more teeth…… then again, you'll be running much larger tires and swapping gears. The nice thing about hall effect sensors, is you can "adjust" or "correct" them, and I think that DD box mentioned earlier could work well for that.

Ed

Mad-Max · Apr 3, 2017

how bout this - assuming I go with the tone ring plan...I could probably stuff the Dakota's original rear axle sensor into the 14 bolt housing eh? I gotta believe the Dakota's sensor would 'read' a D70 tone ring? And then just use one of the Dakota Digital boxes to adjust the speedo...that actually sounds like a half decent plan

other things I'm pondering...

removing the original axles and such also means removing all of the ABS sensors, and I don't want the ABS systems to function anyway, so what is the proper method for 'disabling' the ABS system(s) all together so there are no codes or CEL on the dash...

another thing I'm pondering is how do I disable/remove all the air bag 'stuff'...

RXT · Apr 3, 2017

I would have to believe that so long as the sensor is "fitted" into the axle and it's at the proper distance to read the tone ring, then this should all work….

ABS sensors are also based on hall effect sensors. You can simply leave them off

For the airbag, there will be an accelerometer located on the top of the transmission hump, just under the dash. It can be unplugged and removed. That will disable the air bags….however, make sure you first disconnect the battery, before unplugging the wire, otherwise when you go to reach under the dash and unplug it, you'll feel like you've just been "tagged" by Muhammad Ali, when the thing goes off. Once unplugged, the bags are very stable. I was able to access the passenger bag when I removed the dash, but the one in the steering wheel is difficult to remove without messing up the wheel, and you may have to just replace the wheel with an aftermarket one, or leave it there… One other thing, as you go thru the harnesses, the wires for the air bag circuits are yellow. So don't just "cut" the yellow wires.

Anything disconnected or disabled will cause a light to glow on the dash. Simple solution is just remove the bulb. As for throwing codes, as I recalled it, my Dak didn't just throw codes, I believe you had to scan it to read codes. On newer models you access the codes by turning the key on and off. I don't believe it's automatic. I'm not sure if the computer could be reflashed to clear codes permanently.

Ed

Mad-Max · Apr 3, 2017

...so long as I can alter the chassis the way I want and not have lights and buzzers telling me I have 'different' stuff underneath then I'll be happy. If there are permanent active codes for the ABS and/or air bag etc that's fine - so long as I can remove the bulbs etc and not be reminded of them, then those codes can remain active until the aliens arrive...so long as there aren't other problems like the brakes acting funky or limp mode or other such crap.

Basically, and naturally, after all the chassis upgrades are complete I want the truck to 'behave' just like any other stock Dakota.

I essentially want to 'disable' the ABS entirely without affecting the normal braking function. For sure removing the front wheel sensors will throw codes, but the rear should still 'think' it still has an 8.25 axle.

Ahhhh the fun part of planning a project!! :devil:

Mad-Max · Apr 3, 2017

...and while I'm pondering ponderful ponderancess....since I'm planning to convert the truck to hydroboost (which means different lines and such)....I'm considering just gutting the entire ABS system from the whole dern'd truck, CAB module, lines n all, and just plumb the m-cyl direct into the chassis brake plumbing 'old-school' like. I mean...if I'm going to permanently disable the ABS...why not also remove the unnecessary hardware while I'm at it and just cap off the electronics and be done with it permanently. If the only effect from that is the computer will throw an ABS code and the dash light will come on...well I can get around both of those.

this is what I'm considering chopping out - I think it's called the CAB -

Mad-Max · Apr 4, 2017

cool - one of the guys on Pirate confirmed that the Dakota 9.25 sensor will 'read' a D70 tone ring (he has a '00 Dakota with a SAS and rear D70). The actual speed is off and still needs to be adjusted but that's no problem. So that's likely what I'll do.

RXT · Apr 4, 2017

Looks like your confirmation has been confirmed on RCC too. Yeah, if things were different, I would have taken this route, but with a Cummins that runs on just one wire and no real need for a PCM, I just decided to decomputerize everything. That way it will run no matter what, even if an EMP goes off. All you need now is the elusive 4x4 QC 5.9 Dakota

Ed

Mad-Max · Apr 4, 2017

yah saw that - cool - one less thing to figure out (and that's a pretty major 'thing'). By the time I pull the trigger on all of this I'll have a pretty solid plan. I'm surprised there aren't others chiming in on all of this - maybe this kind of fabrication is just not that common for the Dak's eh?

RXT · Apr 4, 2017

IDK, there are some serious builds here, but at least you got one, from the far side of the country from you. (and we don't even do the same kind of wheeling) In other news, after three weeks I finally got word on my injector pump. The thing was totally shot but still rebuildable, and still cheaper than an all new IP. The techs are Bosch certified, so it will get done right.
I'm finally getting it back this week, and it'll be back on the engine soon. We are gonna try to tune it for 300-400hp and after that, get the power to the ground (been jonesin for an off road adventure) If all goes well, I hope to have it roadworthy in a month or so…..

Ed

Mad-Max · Apr 4, 2017

at this point most of my questions are about 'Dakota' stuff and not the off road stuff, and I'm very grateful for your tech Ed. Most of my previous builds involved machines that were 'pre-computer', but there's no 'decomputerizing' a Dakota.

Glad also to hear your IP is usable - yer Dak aught to be a total beast - looking forward to the vid's

RXT · Apr 5, 2017

Mad-Max said:
….but there's no 'decomputerizing' a Dakota.

Wanna bet

….Well, I can understand and in your case, theres probably no reason to go thru all that. Once you know which model year you end up with, I'm sure you'll get a FSM, these things have a ton of electronics you'll want info on.

Ed

Mad-Max · Apr 9, 2017

yah for sure - but I'm guessing I'll likely be leaving the electronics alone in a lot of ways.

So I'm now pondering two things: front suspension options (links or leafs), and suitable Ford front axles.

I'm leaning now towards links/coils up front, and I'm opening up my searching of front Ford 60's to include all joint units. Best I can tell the king pin units are up to 1991.5, and the metric units came out in 1999 or so. While really nice to have I don't think I'm going to really 'need' a kingpin unit, which means I can open my searching to the '90s units. I think I'll just stay away from the metric units -plenty of other axles available and no need to go through all the metric wheel size nonsense.

RXT · Apr 10, 2017

Mad-Max said:
So I'm now pondering two things: front suspension options (links or leafs), and suitable Ford front axles.

As for front suspension options, both have been used successfully and both have pros and cons, but I believe that leaf springs will force you to have a higher ride stance due to the shape of the Dakota's frame, in conjunction with leaf springs. The frame has a slight "S" curve which puts the frame rails at the front' where the hangers would usually go, higher than where the shackles would go. This means the spring will end up being tilted. To level them, you would either have to mount the shackles at the front, like an older Jeep, or drop the hangers down.

As for axles, I do know that '05 and up axles went to radius arms, so that makes those ideal for coil springs. Older axles will need to be modded for coils and links.

I'm leaning now towards links/coils up front, and I'm opening up my searching of front Ford 60's to include all joint units. Best I can tell the king pin units are up to 1991.5, and the metric units came out in 1999 or so. While really nice to have I don't think I'm going to really 'need' a kingpin unit, which means I can open my searching to the '90s units. I think I'll just stay away from the metric units -plenty of other axles available and no need to go through all the metric wheel size nonsense.

I'm not up on my Ford Dana 60 info. I know that they are extremely desirable and they have several features that make them desirable. Particularly the high pinion, but I also understand that the older KP axles used weaker 30 spline stubs. The newer BJ axles went to stronger outers, but they also went to unit hubs and metric lug patterns. Of the latter, both can be swapped for serviceable bearings and standard lug patterns. What I don't know is related to knuckles, namely if it's possible to do mods like high steer on the BJ axles.

Heres what I did, and why, In my case, I knew that I needed an axle that had to be bomb proof. While the Ford D60 versions are stout, I knew that whatever I got, it had to be fortified inside and out. I decided to go with a Dodge Dana 60 instead. These aren't desirable axles and the price reflects that. I picked up mine for $150 (and some still consider that too much) So for the price, I was able to save a little and it's still a Dana 60, and theres tons of options and support for these axles. Mine was stripped down and filled back up with every heavy duty part, I could shove into it. It got chro-mo 35 spline shafts, new 35 spline stubs and a pair of Yukon super joints. The hubs were swapped out and converted for serviceable hubs and lock out hubs and it got new gears and a locker. It's easily stronger than a stock Ford D60. However I will admit two features the Ford has in it's favor and you'll have to decided if it's really worth it.

For one, the Ford 60 is a high pinion axle. This feature puts the load on the correct side of the gears and is believed to be about 20% stronger. Second, the Dodge 60 uses a weaker CAD axle housing. The general consensus believes that the housing is subject to bending.

For me, these aren't things I worry about. The Dana 60 is a pretty strong axle regardless if it's high or low pinion and even the LP should be more than enough axle. If you really desire strength, you could cryo-freeze the gears and this will net you an increase in strength of about 10%
The Dodge CAD housing isn't a factor for me either. Even with the Cummins, my Dakota is lighter than a full size Cummins Ram. If I felt that the axle would bend, I could add a truss.

Finally the axle came equipped with coil springs. In my case, I took the springs that the axle was bolted to and reused them on my Dakota, they seem to have the perfect amount of compliancy. As for articulation and wheel travel, the terrain I run doesn't really require it.

Ed

Mad-Max · Apr 10, 2017

for me the high pinion feature is a requirement, and I'll likely be fine with either a king pin or ball joint unit, which opens up a lot more years to select from, but I am going to stop short of the metric units just for 'one less thing to change'.

Turning tight is also pretty high on the list - I want to be able to turn full lock without binding the shaft joints so I'm intending to stuff RCV shafts in it. They're spendy, but considering the cost of the typical 35-spline upgrade, new joints, etc, the delta gets less and less, and the RCVs sure solve a lot of issues, and they're warrantied for life.

What I like most about links is the lack of hardware hanging down in front under the bumper, the ride height adjustability, and the elimination of any axle wrap. Probably about the same amount of fabrication either way.

RXT · Apr 11, 2017

Mad-Max said:
Turning tight is also pretty high on the list - I want to be able to turn full lock without binding the shaft joints so I'm intending to stuff RCV shafts in it. They're spendy, but considering the cost of the typical 35-spline upgrade, new joints, etc, the delta gets less and less, and the RCVs sure solve a lot of issues, and they're warrantied for life.

Oh yeah! Thats gonna hurt. I was also looking into the RCV shafts at one point. I liked the idea of using a Rzeppa joint over a U-joint in the front axle, but after weighing my options, I decided otherwise. The price was a big thing for me. But I also had a concern with the sealing boot. I know they make the claim that they seal good and survive better than a rubber boot, but considering the type of off roading I do, the mud down here contains fine sand and it gets pushed into everything. If the mud penetrates the boot, that CV won't live a long happy life and it doesn't look like it will be easy to keep clean, so I went conventional. I never had problems with mud inside a u-joint. You won't have that problem and it looks like a great product.

Ed

Mad-Max · Apr 14, 2017

...and with the RCV shafts being warrantied for life...the good news is it'll only hurt 'once' :wink: . Still just in the planning stages now...

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