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Longtube Comparison: JM/Southeast vs. KRC/Hooker vs. Spintech

59486 Views 89 Replies 38 Participants Last post by  RTracer
With the addition of the Spintech longtube headers from ProZen Motorsports, there are now three sets of longtube headers available for our trucks so I felt it would be appropriate to have a comparison thread where people can state their experiences with each. (Ease of installation, performance gains, fitment[ie: 4x4, manual trans, etc.] or anything that could be potentially useful to other users.)

I'll begin by throwing up the basic information regarding each:

Maker: John Mercedes / Southeast Performance
Website: Southeast Performance Longtube Headers

Option 1:
Price: ~$700
Primary Size: 1 3/4"
Collector Size: 2.5"
Ceramic Coated: Optional, $??? Extra
O2 Bungs: Yes
Included: Bolts, Gaskets, Y-Pipe
Optional: Jet Hot Coating, Custom Cometic Header Gaskets, X-Pipe

Option 2:
Price: $Call John
Primary Size: 1 3/4"
Collector Size: 3"
Ceramic Coated: Optional, $??? Extra
O2 Bungs: Yes
Included: Bolts, Gaskets
Optional: Jet Hot Coating

Maker: KRC Performance / Hooker
Website: KRC Performance Longtube Headers
Price: $899.00
Primary Size: 1 5/8"
Collector Size: 3"
Ceramic Coated: Yes
O2 Bungs: Yes
Included: Bolts, Gaskets, CNC Billet Adapter Plates
Optional:

Maker: Spintech
Website: Spintech Longtube Headers

Option 1:
Price: $789.95
Primary Size: 1 3/4"
Collector Size: 3"
Ceramic Coated: Optional, $200 Extra
O2 Bungs: Yes
Included: Gaskets, Collector Port Plate
Optional: Ceramic Coating

Option 2:
Price: $899.95
Primary Size: 1 7/8"
Collector Size: 3"
Ceramic Coated: Optional, $200 Extra
O2 Bungs: Yes
Included: Gaskets, Collector Port Plate
Optional: Ceramic Coating

***Information provided may be invalid or out of date and is subject to change without notice. Contact individual suppliers for the most accurate/up-to-date information. Please PM me if any of this information is incorrect or new options become available.
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A correction here... carbureted motors need a certain amount of backpressure maintained unless the carburetor is jetted to compensate for an increase or decrease in the backpressure. A modern fuel injected motor will be able to respond to a change in backpressure by adjusting the injector pulse.
I doubt this sir. I'm no where near the car expert that many here are, and you sound like you know more than I on this stuff, but all the evidence out there proves what I said correct. I honestly have no technical backing to support this. My experience is on aircraft as a CC. But, from all things, doesn't this make since??

Think about it... makes more since. Why throw a 4" exhaust on a 318 when it can't really use it? Thats all I'm saying. I know most here have built up motors and all, but again, is bigger necessarily better?

Even muffler shops go against this. But to add to this...
http://www.magnaflow.com/07techtips/faq/question10.asp

Honestly, i didn't think FI/Carb had anything to do with this. I thought exhausts were designed with overall ci and hp in mind. Is that wrong?

EDIT--Like to add, I'm not againist Spintech making headers or anything, or against their designs. Competition is always healthy. Just look at Intel...not much there from rival AMD in the past several years. However, least we agree, it be darn impossible to prove with product is better.
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Sweet, I look forward to hearing about it! :mullet:
Just got the truck--- first impression--- the installation looks amazing, and you can tell these took a lot of work to get them to fit correctly with our trucks. The truck felt better iniitally at every rpm level.

Hard to not drive it like a mad man as the exhaust note sings... Not anywhere near what I was expecting.

Need to go back and recheck everything tonight after driving it home 100+ miles, then start some more 'testing'. 120 mph on the fwy was a hoot! :drive:

:blahblah::blahblah::blahblah:


Pictures, videos and the dyno results will follow that.

Sam
I doubt this sir. I'm no where near the car expert that many here are, and you sound like you know more than I on this stuff, but all the evidence out there proves what I said correct. I honestly have no technical backing to support this. My experience is on aircraft as a CC. But, from all things, doesn't this make since??

Think about it... makes more since. Why throw a 4" exhaust on a 318 when it can't really use it? Thats all I'm saying. I know most here have built up motors and all, but again, is bigger necessarily better?
You're misunderstanding your question. :D

The issue is not the backpressure but the velocity. I've posted several threads in the past year where I've discussed this at length, but here it is again in 10 minutes or less:

You're understanding the cross sectional area concept pretty well, but you are using the wrong terms. A complete lack of back pressure is actually the optimum design, provided you have the correct cross sectional area and primary length. Unfortunately noise and emissions laws affect this, so every factory exhaust is a compromise, and when you throw the economic factor in there, cheaper and smaller always wins. Still, the OEMs are able to tune some pretty respectable performance into those things. Look at our stock 5.9 motors, choked down with multiple cats, a poor exhaust system, and a prehistoric EFI system, yet it gives us 245/345. Thats really pretty good for a smog motor that pretends to be a hotrod.

Pipe cross sectional area and pipe length are the two biggest factors (collector design notwithstanding) in figuring the major benefit of header design, which is exhaust velocity. Velocity of spent gases is more important than volume of spent gases, because a lot of spent gases moving slowly is not beneficial to performance. Velocity as it increases causes a corresponding increase in cylinder scavenging, where you evacuate more spent gases and provide more room for fresh combustibles. By increasing the velocity while using a performance cam (higher overlap than stock) you are also assisting the intake side during the overlap by using the exhaust gas velocity to create a vacuum that pulls the intake charge in. However, larger primary diameter, larger collector diameter, and larger exhaust pipe diameter or any combination of those three can actually cause performance loss, unless you augment the intake side and give it more intake charge.

The backpressure=performance concept occurred when people who were running stock or nearly stock vehicles decided to have their local exhaust shop "slap on some duals" to mimic the performance cars of the 60's. They would notice a drop in performance. I noticed it when I went to true duals on my 81 Z/28, even though I'd installed an Edelbrock Performer manifold and cam package, a Holley carb, and a recurved HEI distributor. Where did my acceleration go, especially out of the hole? Everyone knows that duals adds power, right?

In my case, its because I eliminated the performance barriers that existed in the exhaust, and then didn't recalibrate my A/F. I needed to rejet my carb, or even go to a bigger one, to take advantage of all that extra flow. Otherwise it was running way too lean. A carb can't rejet on its own, and most garden mechanics of the day didn't know what was going on. The exhaust shops would simply say, "Yep, changed out lots of factory y pipe systems for true duals and seen this happen almost every time. You lost too much backpressure."

So the myth took root and stuck. The only truth to it is that on a carbureted motor, reducing backpressure can lean out the motor so much that you burn up the exhaust valves. Fuel also cools the exhaust, the more you use the cooler it runs.

On a modern EFI engine, your O2 or Lambda sensor will read the spent gases and then change the injector pulse width to alter the A/F until its within spec. If you have a factory EGT sensor on there, it can really do some fine tuning.

At the end, only an EFI motor can self-adjust for the increase in velocity ("loss of backpressure"). A carbureted motor will suffer from increased velocity until you adjust it yourself (rejet or upgrade the carb to a larger one).
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Think about it... makes more since. Why throw a 4" exhaust on a 318 when it can't really use it? Thats all I'm saying. I know most here have built up motors and all, but again, is bigger necessarily better?

Even muffler shops go against this. But to add to this...
http://www.magnaflow.com/07techtips/faq/question10.asp
That chart only goes up to 400ci and 550hp, that's not enough :jester:

You're right, the headers/exhaust need to fit the application. But the problem is that a lot of folks are doing pretty serious strokers these days, and these things need a lot of header and exhaust (mine will have 1 7/8"-2" primaries w/ 3.5" collectors and 3.5" duals...but I'm definitely not the norm lol).

It's always good to have more options, there's always been stuff that works well for mild setups, it's nice to see some products that will help out the more heavily modded folks. Even a boosted 360 would probably benefit from a 1 7/8" primary.
Wow...ton of intel right there. Suffice to say, you know way more about this than I, and make some sense with it as well. As you said, one word of mouth spread to the other and caught fire. I honestly can't truely say yes or no, was just donating what I've always been told...until today :wave: .

At any rate, I can't argue against you or with you, seeing how I have no background in this field nor knowledge, merely hear say. Maybe you're right, I can't say.

But My first post was basically saying from my own understanding is S&S went with this type of collector for a reason, to maintain some back pressure to maintain torque. I was merely warning those not to hop on the hype express (if so) that A brand or B brand has this and that. Maybe a 3" collector is better, I can't say. S&S went 2.5" for a reason.

Anyways, thanks for the education :) I know my own exhaust is getting rather annoying. Not sure where to go with it, just too loud lol.
My first post was basically saying from my own understanding is S&S went with this type of collector for a reason, to maintain some back pressure to maintain torque. I was merely warning those not to hop on the hype express (if so) that A brand or B brand has this and that. Maybe a 3" collector is better, I can't say. S&S went 2.5" for a reason.
They did, at that. If you remember the original interviews John had with S&S, even John pushed for the bigger collector because of his prior experience with race motors for E and A body Chryslers, until Loren showed him the math and proved that the 2.5 inch collector would be best for the majority of his customers. A 4400 lb truck needs torque out of the hole and big midrange power to move it down the track. They're better in the eighth mile than the quarter because of this. The smaller collector is designed to move the torque down low by giving the maximum scavenging at lower rpm. The special design of the collector (tri-y) collects pairs of tubes and gives even more low rpm scavenging. These are long tube performance headers for a heavy truck, not a 2800lb E body race shell.
So many people couldn't understand that, and some people posted pics of breathtaking examples of custom headers. There is a place for those type of pipes and it isn't on a motor with bolt-ons. If someone builds a full on, big cube small block with a monster cam and sewer pipe heads, the big tubes and collectors have a place. If you're going to take a motor and rev the dung out of it and expect power all the way to the top of the band, you'll need the big pipes and collectors.

There is a whole branch of mathematics that header theory is built on. Its called "Fluid Dynamics" because a volume of air in a system is considered a fluid medium. Air is mathematically equivalent to water when you talk about its interaction with the physical world, so the same rules apply. Once I understood that, it was easy to get past the myths.
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t's always good to have more options, there's always been stuff that works well for mild setups, it's nice to see some products that will help out the more heavily modded folks. Even a boosted 360 would probably benefit from a 1 7/8" primary.
There's a few things that need to be changed to make big headers an easy reality. The passenger side is a pain unless you relocate the oil filter. The heat shields by the footwells are an obstacle. We could really use a more compact steering shaft, as well as a smaller brake booster or maybe even a Hydroboost. Solid motor mounts help too. Obviously, it can be done without doing a single one of these things, but it would help out so much to do the changes.

It all depends on how much you want to change before it becomes too cost prohibitive to do things without compromise. Then there's the people who are going to insist on stepped headers, merge collectors, megaphones...
There's a few things that need to be changed to make big headers an easy reality. The passenger side is a pain unless you relocate the oil filter. The heat shields by the footwells are an obstacle. We could really use a more compact steering shaft, as well as a smaller brake booster or maybe even a Hydroboost. Solid motor mounts help too. Obviously, it can be done without doing a single one of these things, but it would help out so much to do the changes.

It all depends on how much you want to change before it becomes too cost prohibitive to do things without compromise. Then there's the people who are going to insist on stepped headers, merge collectors, megaphones...
No doubt, I'm sure the guy that's gonna be building my headers is gonna have lots of fun making them fit, but I'll also be running solid mounts, and don't mind if some stuff has to be removed or modified. Most folks want a nice easy bolt-on, and that can definitely be tough when you start trying fit big tubes into tight spaces.
I do believe you can order these headers from SAM,(socaldakota) or spintech direct and get a better price. i have found that certain vendors in this forum charge an extra 100 bucks for spintech.
Are you paying attention???? Spintech has just come out with the long tube for our trucks.JM's are a joke the spintechs WILL be the way to go 3" collector>2.5" collector 1 7/8" primarys>1 5/8" primarys nough said.
DEPUTY
JM's got 3" too...
Got some more information and another longtube header option from Southeast Performance for everybody! I honestly had no idea they had a model with 3" longtubes! Anybody have them!??
Here's what he posted..
the initial dyno made by one of the DD forum members in a stock 5.9L R/T was 28.4HP and 41 FT Lbs Torque. adding a Hypertech programmer pulled mid 30 hp area with higher 48 lbs tq.

We also have an updated version of our "Real Custom Headers" with the torque producing collector removed and a standard 3" collector installed.

this typical 4 into 1 design header will reach that upper end HP for built high horsepower, high rpm engines.

As soon as Jet Hot releases a set , i'll put a picture on the website.
just the opposite Ryan, you have to remember a real header manufacturer with 31 years experiance designed these pipes. they are not someones knock off or re-adapted better idea so a lot of thought and design went into them. these were custom designed for the weight of vehicle, engine output and the powerband these trucks typically operate in. this is why the dyno's will show a very high torque number along with a great HP gain.
we still get our custom build guys wanting to try a peakier header with a standard 3" collector. all we have to do is place a typical 3" collector on the primaries to make a standard 4 into 1 style header. not much brilliance there and the lower end numbers reflect this but if you need a standard design bigger collector it's all do-able..
thats good shit, i know what you mean by the farts
Glad to see someone took on the task of velocity and how it effects torque or more specifically where the torque is at in the power band.. I also read somewhere in the last few post that the hooker 5803's need a adapter plate??
Not true Bought mine from summit 9 years ago and bolted em on..I thought that KRC only shortened the collector {which I would not like} and installed 02 bungs..Anyway good conversation like to see more of em.. Bout to try another {don't know if they will fit till I try em} header experment.. I will keep everyone posted how this one comes out..

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I never knew why they needed the adapter plate either. Supposedly its to give great transmission clearance, but if the earlier 360 used the 46RH, how much more clearance did they need with the RE?

I hadn't heard the bit about the shortened length or the O2 bungs. I'll have to take a look at the KRC headers I sold my buddy to see how those bungs look.

Hey, OT for a moment... do you remember the thread pitch and diameter on the O2 sensors? I have to go get some pipe plugs for mine asap, and I don't have any old sensors to use as plugs.
I never knew why they needed the adapter plate either. Supposedly its to give great transmission clearance, but if the earlier 360 used the 46RH, how much more clearance did they need with the RE?

I hadn't heard the bit about the shortened length or the O2 bungs. I'll have to take a look at the KRC headers I sold my buddy to see how those bungs look.

Hey, OT for a moment... do you remember the thread pitch and diameter on the O2 sensors? I have to go get some pipe plugs for mine asap, and I don't have any old sensors to use as plugs.
Its not a pipe thread, so that wont work. 02's use a O-ring to seal, just like a spark plug.
I never knew why they needed the adapter plate either. Supposedly its to give great transmission clearance, but if the earlier 360 used the 46RH, how much more clearance did they need with the RE?

I hadn't heard the bit about the shortened length or the O2 bungs. I'll have to take a look at the KRC headers I sold my buddy to see how those bungs look.

Hey, OT for a moment... do you remember the thread pitch and diameter on the O2 sensors? I have to go get some pipe plugs for mine asap, and I don't have any old sensors to use as plugs.
no but i will check tomorrow and get back here..
They did, at that. If you remember the original interviews John had with S&S, even John pushed for the bigger collector because of his prior experience with race motors for E and A body Chryslers, until Loren showed him the math and proved that the 2.5 inch collector would be best for the majority of his customers. A 4400 lb truck needs torque out of the hole and big midrange power to move it down the track. They're better in the eighth mile than the quarter because of this. The smaller collector is designed to move the torque down low by giving the maximum scavenging at lower rpm. The special design of the collector (tri-y) collects pairs of tubes and gives even more low rpm scavenging. These are long tube performance headers for a heavy truck, not a 2800lb E body race shell.
So many people couldn't understand that, and some people posted pics of breathtaking examples of custom headers. There is a place for those type of pipes and it isn't on a motor with bolt-ons. If someone builds a full on, big cube small block with a monster cam and sewer pipe heads, the big tubes and collectors have a place. If you're going to take a motor and rev the dung out of it and expect power all the way to the top of the band, you'll need the big pipes and collectors.
Thats exactly what i was trying to say, just somehow didn't. You hit the nail on the proverbial head bud. Moving a 4400lb heavy brick requires torque, more so than hp. I do recall those phone conversations, and many of the trial and errors that Glen went through as well. That was what i was trying to convey for us...
JM's got 3" too...


Here's what he posted..
Wow...so true. GoFast you basically summed up the headers right here. What really sucks is vendors are pushing this, not Spintech. hell, their own website (that I've seen) doesn't even show anything for us. Anyways, competition is good, but in the end people will go with who they prefer, and most here know John's gets and sells top of the line shit when many vendors wrote us off.
Hey, OT for a moment... do you remember the thread pitch and diameter on the O2 sensors? I have to go get some pipe plugs for mine asap, and I don't have any old sensors to use as plugs.
18mm oil drain plug works, that's what I have in mine.
18mm oil drain plug works, that's what I have in mine.
Never knew that. SCHWEET!
most here know John's gets and sells top of the line shit when many vendors wrote us off.
:huh: what I didn't say anything not gonna even go there just gonna leave it alone:blahblah:



DEPUTY
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