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JM Long tube headers, the inside story

62706 Views 236 Replies 43 Participants Last post by  SinCity R/T
OK, we all read the 8 pages of stuff in the "swap" section. So, I wanted to answer a few questions for you guys cause I saw alot of nonsense posted.

First, these are true long tubes. And with that said, these are not a typical 1 hour bolt on. If your Mopars took you 2-3 hours, these won't. If you want a simple install, these aren't for you. If you want serious headers for a serious HP gain and effort spent isn't a big deal, these ARE for you.

So, now your saying, who the hell are you Tanky? I'm one of (I believe ) 2 that tested these headers. Thats right kiddies, I did the 2nd ever prototype test fit and it was done on a 2000 RC RT. Glen Renzoni did the first ever test fit, and he deserves much of the praise as ever since he's input helped the design. Using his instructions he sent me, we made up a basic instruction set for John to give to folks. Trust me, you need these instructions--it helps!! We only found 1 minor thing that the builder fixed ASAP.

What yall don't understand is this set of headers are built by a huge NHRA exhaust builder. Not just anyone built these and a TON of time went into them. From a bone stock RT to a 408 blown, its been tested. Dyno numbers weren't done, but seriously, if you need a dynojet to know the difference in gains over shorty's to long tubes, then I can't help you any further.

So, what did the prototype install net us? For the 2nd ever install, it was flawlessly perfect. However, you must understand this is no TB install or some crap. This takes time. The passenger side will BE close, very close to the transmission pan. You all need to understand what you have in your hands...a designed work of art to go in a MIDSIZE vehicle, space is NOT your friend. You will still have clearance.
The passenger header itself is an absolute work of art, anyone that thinks otherwise has no idea of engine performance. If you looked at the pictures on his headers, you would have noticed bags covering the collector. That my friends, is the trick and design genius to this header. The passenger side will be a tough install and the slip fit #8 (or #6--been awhile) pipe allows for easier install.

Whats involved in the install? Well, i can tell you what worked for us and how we made things go very smooth for us. This is of course, using Glen's instructions to help us along. For the passenger side, your coil needs to be removed and it makes life a ton easier to REMOVE the motor mount. Don't be alarmed by this, its much easier than you think. With the mount out of the way, these headers go in fairly easy. You will need to have a jack on the motor though--duh!
Driver side, was a bitch. Glen had more problems on the passenger side than we did so, not sure here. You need to remove the starter. I will tell you right now, thats a MO-FO especially if you have mopar headers and a floor shifter. space is soooooo friggin tight. It also helps to have a lift handy. These headers are so long, doign this in your garage will be challenging. We did it however, in the garage, to see how difficult the install would go. Jack Stands will NOT extend far enough for clearance. To be honest, we took a 3 ton jack, placed it on the side (under driver's door) and MAXED it out. The truck was damn near a 45 degree angle, but this allowed enough floor clearance to get these suckers in. Trust me, its no easy job. A lift will make life better, but it can be done in a garage if need. Use concrete blocks or something for your jack stands :nana:

I know that was very brief and I can email the exact directions we sent John. I just wanted to touch base with you guys on these headers. They are, in no way shape, or form anything close to GSM garbage. These are true long tubes built by a true NHRA company with over 15 years of experience (IIRC). Its a matter of what you are looking for in your truck. Serious power and gains or not. John has spent a ton of time, money, and effort, along with his friends, to get these headers out to you. To be honest they were almost ready at time GSM came out, but true to John is, he wouldn't release them without testing them on several year models FIRST, something Scott didn't do and the headers hit on 2000 models. Quality is of the finest out there. John doesn't put his name on garbage.

But I can't stress enough the install of them. Don't go into these thinking its a wham bamm ordeal cause its far from it. However, you will have one of the best items out there you can get for a Dakota V8 truck.

If I can be of further help, feel free to ask. I hope all this helps clear some air.
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janesy said:

Thank God. Someone finally posted the heads next to the headers. Now, for all of you who are arguing IN FAVOR of these bathtub abortions being remotely worth a fucking shit, HOW THE HELL ARE YOU GOING TO SEAL THE SUMBITCHES TO THE HEADS??? Please, seriously, post up these magical gaskets that have been custom created to fit these magical "oval-port" R/T heads.

LOL. No, not just laughing out loud, I am rolling on the floor shitting my pants laughing so hard. :clap2:
Tanky said:
I stand corrected there, however, they were NOT made for Magnum 360s, thus entering the adapter plate design. SS took a 99 Dakota stock and made us headers from scratch.
The adapter plates are to space the headers off the heads far enough so that they will fit a truck with a manual transmission. They'll bolt right up to a regular stock 360 head.

you kids must be too young to remember the Kool Aid at Jonestown.
slammedR/T said:
I just want some long tube headers with 1 3/4" primaries and a 3" collector(maybe even stepped but I'm not gonna get greedy) for less than $1,500.00 is that really to much to ask? I almost bought a set of the lords headers and figured I could fix them,till I found out they are 2 1/2" collectors :cussing: Why the fu<k even bother with the larger primaries if you are gonna choke them down at the collector :rant: Guess I'll have to stick with my PPH's for a little while longer :(

I'm fixin to get me a set of hand-fabbed 1 7/8" long tubes for $750. SHould I ask him to make me two sets?
bryan00rt said:
It was a breath of fresh air to sell a 9.90 car and move on, even if it was to a competitors truck. ........ blah blah blah


You just allegedly sold a 9.90 car and you are actually defending these headers and attacking Danno's knowledge?

Was it YOUR 9.90 car, or do you have the same buddy that everyone on the internet has with a 9.90 car? You didn't even turn a wrench on the damn thing did you? You bought it from someone, went to the track, made a few 11.50 "motor" passes and then put it up for sale didn't you? I know your type... LOL. :blahblah:
Chuck said:
Till this thread, I haven't seen a problem with Danno. It seemed that he has offered some sound advice in the 5.9 forum for a while, and leapt at the chance to answer tech questions. I dunno about Danno. I liked the guy, but...

What I thought was iffy was that he sat back out of this header thread until devilBrad posted up the pics of the flanges, then he jumped in out of nowhere and had something smart to say. So he was watching the thread and waiting for an opportunity to hit John. He says he didn't want to be first to say anything because he was afraid of being struck by lightning. Cute, a reference to the growing cadre of people who resent John and laughingly refer to him as the Mopar god. After reading Danno's description of how his lifter trick works, I would suggest that he not only fear lightning, but also people who end up damaging their valvetrain when they decide to try thinner head gaskets, or have their heads surfaced and that missing .020 of "slop" becomes sorely missed. Nuff said.

The oiling thing was a bit bad, though, when Bryan called him on it. Nice to see that Danno owned up to it quickly and didn't get defensive.

One thing bothers me though.. this quote here:

If there is something bad about John we need to know it. I won't hesitate to make sure people don't get screwed here, so Danno needs to post up these incredible behind the scenes conversations with his friends. I'm eager to know what a guy who makes zero profit on parts and sells the best flowing R/T heads on the market could possibly have done to piss off your two friends. I've pored over every big Mopar forum I could find (over 10 of them so far), and I have yet to see a single thing posted by any of his customers that would lead anyone to believe he is a bad person. The only thing I've ever seen was Forseti's recent rage because John refused to prep his bare block. If you didn't read that, John was trying to save the guy money and also keep his own name clean just in case the guy messed up on the engine build.

In my own experience, I became a Southeast Performance customer after getting hosed by the other big shop. I ignored the warnings from John's group and found out the hard way what it takes to get decent power out of the Dakota. I was a customer first, and then a friend, much the same as everyone else who does business with him.

While Danno is at it maybe he could explain what he means by "seen the results of his games"? Whats that about? Lets hear it Danno - what results have you seen?
Maybe then we can talk about people who steal designs from people who trusted them or try to snake suppliers out from under people, and how that ends up biting them in the ass. Or didn't your friends tell you about all that stuff?

As far as Danno talking about dyno queens...thats another cute response from him, and another one without merit.
Up until November of last year I ran with a much more rarefied crowd, namely the E46 M3 owners. I had a 2002 and a 2005 M3, and I used both of them for road and drag racing. People chased dyno numbers as much as they chased time slips. Each camp had their arguments. The dyno guys would say the timeslip crowd was innaccurate because of different humidity, track prep, tuning, foot skills, tits in the crowd, whatever. The track guys would say the dyno guys could simply apply the wrong correction for better numbers, or even use a more powerful fan to blow more air in the motor. They argued about using 3rd vs 4th gear, hood up vs. hood down, etc. Naturally, the guys in each crowd would turn those excuses on each other when they lost grudge matches at the dyno or bleach box. Heck, the dyno guys knocked different brands of dynos, and the drag racers fought over ET vs. trap.

Personally, I just use a $30 GTech basic unit to compare parts and builds, and I think its just fine. Thats how I saw my KRaCkhead motor wasn't the greatest when I lost 2 seconds over my stock motor with the Kenne Bell S/C. Unfortunately I have a lot of pressure from people on this forum to come up with some actual numbers for you guys so I guess my GTech isn't going to cut it.

I have a 500+ hp R/T sitting dead in my driveway, waiting for a single, simple bracket to come back from the machine shop. It currently has KB mids on there, with a dual system going through a 2/2 FM. Let me get this thing finished, I'll get the DFI set up, and I'll do some runs for both crowds before and after.

The problem I see is that no one is going to come away from this very satisfied. I have been through arguments like this time and time again, and it just never rests.

Case in point: Steve Dinan, owner of Dinan Performance, came under heavy fire from the M3 guys when his S2 package for the M3 failed to deliver on its 361bhp claims. Many people were angry when their cars failed to dyno much higher than stock. Some people sued. Steve personally answered every customer's questions and pointed out that at every single dyno used by a private party, the intakes were supplied by a shop fan in most cases. In my own experience here, I have yet to see a chassis dyno supplied by anything bigger. Steve's company uses a wind tunnel fan that can supply something like 250,000 cfm, and can easily replicate wind speeds over 100mph for dyno work. On his dyno, the cars make 361hp, consistently.

A lot of people with a technical mind immediately saw Dinan's point. Some didn't, and the badmouthing continues. Yet the guy keeps turning out quality products and his business grows.

In our case we have a guy that seriously has been trying to get these headers built for two years. Its not because they suck, because he is a joke, or whatever you guys want to come up with. Its because no one cares about the Dakota as a market, and if every single one of the R/T owners decided to purchase these headers it isn't enough to get us noticed. I tried earlier last year to get some major manufacturers interested in some of my ideas for our trucks, and aside from doing me the favor of letting me get all the development done so they could sell the product, I got nowhere.

So guys, what happens if and when I get this machine rolling, and I post up my gains over my KB mids? What is going to happen then? In my mind I would think thats satisfactory, because I'll be using a built, tuned motor thats pushing quite a bit more air than a stocker, so these headers should show respectable gains. Many of you are running mids and shorties on lightly modded motors, along with a few H/C packages. It should be the right thing to do, yes?

Probably not. I will get people saying that I tweaked the tune so the Kenne Bell's looked worse, and there will be at least one guy who says he knows the truck should be turning better numbers on the KB's because his cousin has the exact same setup as me and I should be at least 30hp more. There will be people who claim that I tweaked the A/F for John's headers and there's no way the truck will be streetable. Someone 4000 miles away is likely to say I'm lying and all my time slips and dyno runs are faked, and if I was local he'd show me what a real truck could do. No way I pulled that ET with that trap speed. I've seen this all before.

Despite this, I'm still going to do the tests, and you can beat each other up trying to explain the results for all I care. S&S will explain the flange design, and the truck will make the numbers, you guys can work the rest out yourselves. Those who want to support John will do so, those who won't will still bitch about the flange, the collector size, and their day jobs. Nothing will be resolved.

And John will still keep selling top quality motors, despite all the "help".

So, you take offense to the dyno queen comment and then take a half page to explain how you used to hang out with the German dyno queens and then illustrate how Dinan used a 100mph wind tunnel to eeek out the last 20 hp?

As far as fluid dynamics goes, I'm sure that bryan00rt with all his fluid knowledge will admit that if you strap a few widescreen TVs (in the upright position) on the outer skin of a C-5's wings, it's going to fuck with some airflow for sure. That is the equivalent to the exhaust flanges we are looking at here.

The only reason I see for the ridiculously small collector fitting is because John M & SS thought it would allow more guys to just bolt these into a stock exhaust system. Kind of like you with your supercharger motor that's desperately trying to breathe through a single FLowmaster muffler (with dual inlets). I garantee you that if you shed the cats and ran 3" duals all the way back to 3" in/out straight flow mufflers of ANY kind, you'd see large gains. :beer:
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janesy said:
better yet, post it on DB, because i could be interested in swapping my 5803's for some 1 3/4". possibly Alex would be building them for his GEN II ?

Alex is getting a set of one-off 1 7/8" long tubes for his Gen 2 from a fabricator in South Carolina. If they come out pretty good and easy to install (which will be relative) I'll see how many more sets he wants to make.

The reason for the "relative ease of install" comment is that I will be running an LA motor with the Schumacher motor mount kit and very few accessories, etc. No a/c, no heat, etc. etc.

But I already told Deputy that I'mma wait to see how they come out. Once we know the results, we might get adventurous.
i'll keep ya'll posted....
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