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JM Long tube headers, the inside story

62777 Views 236 Replies 43 Participants Last post by  SinCity R/T
OK, we all read the 8 pages of stuff in the "swap" section. So, I wanted to answer a few questions for you guys cause I saw alot of nonsense posted.

First, these are true long tubes. And with that said, these are not a typical 1 hour bolt on. If your Mopars took you 2-3 hours, these won't. If you want a simple install, these aren't for you. If you want serious headers for a serious HP gain and effort spent isn't a big deal, these ARE for you.

So, now your saying, who the hell are you Tanky? I'm one of (I believe ) 2 that tested these headers. Thats right kiddies, I did the 2nd ever prototype test fit and it was done on a 2000 RC RT. Glen Renzoni did the first ever test fit, and he deserves much of the praise as ever since he's input helped the design. Using his instructions he sent me, we made up a basic instruction set for John to give to folks. Trust me, you need these instructions--it helps!! We only found 1 minor thing that the builder fixed ASAP.

What yall don't understand is this set of headers are built by a huge NHRA exhaust builder. Not just anyone built these and a TON of time went into them. From a bone stock RT to a 408 blown, its been tested. Dyno numbers weren't done, but seriously, if you need a dynojet to know the difference in gains over shorty's to long tubes, then I can't help you any further.

So, what did the prototype install net us? For the 2nd ever install, it was flawlessly perfect. However, you must understand this is no TB install or some crap. This takes time. The passenger side will BE close, very close to the transmission pan. You all need to understand what you have in your hands...a designed work of art to go in a MIDSIZE vehicle, space is NOT your friend. You will still have clearance.
The passenger header itself is an absolute work of art, anyone that thinks otherwise has no idea of engine performance. If you looked at the pictures on his headers, you would have noticed bags covering the collector. That my friends, is the trick and design genius to this header. The passenger side will be a tough install and the slip fit #8 (or #6--been awhile) pipe allows for easier install.

Whats involved in the install? Well, i can tell you what worked for us and how we made things go very smooth for us. This is of course, using Glen's instructions to help us along. For the passenger side, your coil needs to be removed and it makes life a ton easier to REMOVE the motor mount. Don't be alarmed by this, its much easier than you think. With the mount out of the way, these headers go in fairly easy. You will need to have a jack on the motor though--duh!
Driver side, was a bitch. Glen had more problems on the passenger side than we did so, not sure here. You need to remove the starter. I will tell you right now, thats a MO-FO especially if you have mopar headers and a floor shifter. space is soooooo friggin tight. It also helps to have a lift handy. These headers are so long, doign this in your garage will be challenging. We did it however, in the garage, to see how difficult the install would go. Jack Stands will NOT extend far enough for clearance. To be honest, we took a 3 ton jack, placed it on the side (under driver's door) and MAXED it out. The truck was damn near a 45 degree angle, but this allowed enough floor clearance to get these suckers in. Trust me, its no easy job. A lift will make life better, but it can be done in a garage if need. Use concrete blocks or something for your jack stands :nana:

I know that was very brief and I can email the exact directions we sent John. I just wanted to touch base with you guys on these headers. They are, in no way shape, or form anything close to GSM garbage. These are true long tubes built by a true NHRA company with over 15 years of experience (IIRC). Its a matter of what you are looking for in your truck. Serious power and gains or not. John has spent a ton of time, money, and effort, along with his friends, to get these headers out to you. To be honest they were almost ready at time GSM came out, but true to John is, he wouldn't release them without testing them on several year models FIRST, something Scott didn't do and the headers hit on 2000 models. Quality is of the finest out there. John doesn't put his name on garbage.

But I can't stress enough the install of them. Don't go into these thinking its a wham bamm ordeal cause its far from it. However, you will have one of the best items out there you can get for a Dakota V8 truck.

If I can be of further help, feel free to ask. I hope all this helps clear some air.
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Well I think its all time everyone just took a step back from this here battle royale and calmed down.

Regarding the OT: John spent a bit of time going over the "issues" with S&S earlier today. As it turns out, there is no problem. After I heard the explanation for the flanges I understood why they look the way they do, and its not because they were done by a blind guy. I would post the reasons here, but I don't yet have permission from S&S to repeat any communications. Its a little bit different for a business owner (John) to reprint stuff without express permission. That kind of thing can lead to terminated business relationships.

Since some enterprising forum members have taken it on themselves to contact S&S for the lowdown, maybe we could also wait for them to post their responses. It would be better if you heard it directly from S&S anyway. I looked at one of my two sets of JM longtubes, and I had my objections too. Personally, I think the production flanges look like crap, but I always take performance over looks. You should see some of the girls I've dated...
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tcuillier said:
You've obviously never met Danno. One of the most helpful guys and knowledgeable about MOPARS that I've ever met. I don't need to see anything more about the snake-oil headers you're pushing SO hard. What's your cut? All I need to see is the pic of the flanges to KNOW they're a low-quality piece of shit. Sorry guys, a picture says a thousand words-always has-always will.

Till this thread, I haven't seen a problem with Danno. It seemed that he has offered some sound advice in the 5.9 forum for a while, and leapt at the chance to answer tech questions. I dunno about Danno. I liked the guy, but...

What I thought was iffy was that he sat back out of this header thread until devilBrad posted up the pics of the flanges, then he jumped in out of nowhere and had something smart to say. So he was watching the thread and waiting for an opportunity to hit John. He says he didn't want to be first to say anything because he was afraid of being struck by lightning. Cute, a reference to the growing cadre of people who resent John and laughingly refer to him as the Mopar god. After reading Danno's description of how his lifter trick works, I would suggest that he not only fear lightning, but also people who end up damaging their valvetrain when they decide to try thinner head gaskets, or have their heads surfaced and that missing .020 of "slop" becomes sorely missed. Nuff said.

The oiling thing was a bit bad, though, when Bryan called him on it. Nice to see that Danno owned up to it quickly and didn't get defensive.

One thing bothers me though.. this quote here:

Danno said:
Smell BS all you want boys. Ive known Mercedes longer than you guys have... and seen the results of his games. in fact two of his old cronies that had called me WAY worse names than you ever have or will, ended up getting screwed by Lord JM... and guess what, they are friends with me now...
If there is something bad about John we need to know it. I won't hesitate to make sure people don't get screwed here, so Danno needs to post up these incredible behind the scenes conversations with his friends. I'm eager to know what a guy who makes zero profit on parts and sells the best flowing R/T heads on the market could possibly have done to piss off your two friends. I've pored over every big Mopar forum I could find (over 10 of them so far), and I have yet to see a single thing posted by any of his customers that would lead anyone to believe he is a bad person. The only thing I've ever seen was Forseti's recent rage because John refused to prep his bare block. If you didn't read that, John was trying to save the guy money and also keep his own name clean just in case the guy messed up on the engine build.

In my own experience, I became a Southeast Performance customer after getting hosed by the other big shop. I ignored the warnings from John's group and found out the hard way what it takes to get decent power out of the Dakota. I was a customer first, and then a friend, much the same as everyone else who does business with him.

While Danno is at it maybe he could explain what he means by "seen the results of his games"? Whats that about? Lets hear it Danno - what results have you seen?
Maybe then we can talk about people who steal designs from people who trusted them or try to snake suppliers out from under people, and how that ends up biting them in the ass. Or didn't your friends tell you about all that stuff?

As far as Danno talking about dyno queens...thats another cute response from him, and another one without merit.
Up until November of last year I ran with a much more rarefied crowd, namely the E46 M3 owners. I had a 2002 and a 2005 M3, and I used both of them for road and drag racing. People chased dyno numbers as much as they chased time slips. Each camp had their arguments. The dyno guys would say the timeslip crowd was innaccurate because of different humidity, track prep, tuning, foot skills, tits in the crowd, whatever. The track guys would say the dyno guys could simply apply the wrong correction for better numbers, or even use a more powerful fan to blow more air in the motor. They argued about using 3rd vs 4th gear, hood up vs. hood down, etc. Naturally, the guys in each crowd would turn those excuses on each other when they lost grudge matches at the dyno or bleach box. Heck, the dyno guys knocked different brands of dynos, and the drag racers fought over ET vs. trap.

Personally, I just use a $30 GTech basic unit to compare parts and builds, and I think its just fine. Thats how I saw my KRaCkhead motor wasn't the greatest when I lost 2 seconds over my stock motor with the Kenne Bell S/C. Unfortunately I have a lot of pressure from people on this forum to come up with some actual numbers for you guys so I guess my GTech isn't going to cut it.

I have a 500+ hp R/T sitting dead in my driveway, waiting for a single, simple bracket to come back from the machine shop. It currently has KB mids on there, with a dual system going through a 2/2 FM. Let me get this thing finished, I'll get the DFI set up, and I'll do some runs for both crowds before and after.

The problem I see is that no one is going to come away from this very satisfied. I have been through arguments like this time and time again, and it just never rests.

Case in point: Steve Dinan, owner of Dinan Performance, came under heavy fire from the M3 guys when his S2 package for the M3 failed to deliver on its 361bhp claims. Many people were angry when their cars failed to dyno much higher than stock. Some people sued. Steve personally answered every customer's questions and pointed out that at every single dyno used by a private party, the intakes were supplied by a shop fan in most cases. In my own experience here, I have yet to see a chassis dyno supplied by anything bigger. Steve's company uses a wind tunnel fan that can supply something like 250,000 cfm, and can easily replicate wind speeds over 100mph for dyno work. On his dyno, the cars make 361hp, consistently.

A lot of people with a technical mind immediately saw Dinan's point. Some didn't, and the badmouthing continues. Yet the guy keeps turning out quality products and his business grows.

In our case we have a guy that seriously has been trying to get these headers built for two years. Its not because they suck, because he is a joke, or whatever you guys want to come up with. Its because no one cares about the Dakota as a market, and if every single one of the R/T owners decided to purchase these headers it isn't enough to get us noticed. I tried earlier last year to get some major manufacturers interested in some of my ideas for our trucks, and aside from doing me the favor of letting me get all the development done so they could sell the product, I got nowhere.

So guys, what happens if and when I get this machine rolling, and I post up my gains over my KB mids? What is going to happen then? In my mind I would think thats satisfactory, because I'll be using a built, tuned motor thats pushing quite a bit more air than a stocker, so these headers should show respectable gains. Many of you are running mids and shorties on lightly modded motors, along with a few H/C packages. It should be the right thing to do, yes?

Probably not. I will get people saying that I tweaked the tune so the Kenne Bell's looked worse, and there will be at least one guy who says he knows the truck should be turning better numbers on the KB's because his cousin has the exact same setup as me and I should be at least 30hp more. There will be people who claim that I tweaked the A/F for John's headers and there's no way the truck will be streetable. Someone 4000 miles away is likely to say I'm lying and all my time slips and dyno runs are faked, and if I was local he'd show me what a real truck could do. No way I pulled that ET with that trap speed. I've seen this all before.

Despite this, I'm still going to do the tests, and you can beat each other up trying to explain the results for all I care. S&S will explain the flange design, and the truck will make the numbers, you guys can work the rest out yourselves. Those who want to support John will do so, those who won't will still bitch about the flange, the collector size, and their day jobs. Nothing will be resolved.

And John will still keep selling top quality motors, despite all the "help".
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As far as DevilBrad goes, I'm glad he posted up and started this, and not someone else. DB is more sensitive than most to scam artists and KRaCkheads, given his past experiences. If S&S can satisfy DB's points, I think that will do more to quell this little discussion than anything else.

Regarding Bryan00RT, he is not who some obliquely suggest he is. He isn't anyone who had anything to do with the Mopar market until recently, and he is simply a truck owner looking for speed. I haven't had a chance to meet the guy yet, but since he's less than an hour away from my place, I'm sure I will eventually. One thing you guys should think of when you mock his mention of working in aerospace is that his experience directly applies to this discussion. There is no such thing as "air" in physics. Air at velocity is treated as a fluid medium and as such, fluid dynamics is the applicable science when you're talking about header design. Bryan just might have a lot more experience with fluid dynamics than any of the other people in this discussion. He can explain that if he wants, though by judging how everyone is taking him, I doubt you'll accept anything he says at this point.
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janesy said:
wow, didn't this hit the fan last night.
Like Axel Rose said, "When the shit hit the fan, I'm a frequent flyer..."

janesy said:
Interesting that this went from product info/bashing/clarification whatever you want to call it, to an personal assualt on multiple levels.
Isn't that usually how it goes when you get emotion in the way of facts? Now I'm trying to sort it out. What I thought was equally interesting was that Internet Flame War #1 Law of Thermosemantics kicked in after about 10 pages, with one person relating another person to Hitler. That was priceless.

janesy said:
I just want to know what's up with the quality of these headers, same thing I've been posting for the last week.
And so did I, once I saw the flanges for myself. If you looked at the original shots of the headers on John's website, the ones that were uncoated, I was the guy who took the pics at his warehouse. The headers were bolted on my own motor that was under construction at the time. I didn't remember the flanges looking like that. Those were the prototypes and I think they ended up on Tanky's truck. Though the ones in that pic seem a bit rougher than either of my sets, remember that you're looking at a 2D representation of whats really there. If you saw it in person its not half as bad as how the pics show it. Its still bad enough for me to question it. I did, and S&S proved what they're talking about. I'm hoping they get off their non-computer literate butts and get this thing typed out for us, but unfortunately I think it'll take a back burner to being out in their shop making money. I'm not saying thats how it'll go down, but just a heads up.
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Tanky said:
As for BrynnRT being military, although I don't know him, I doubt he is. I believe he's located near John M and IF so, the only base near by is Tyndal, home of KC135 Tankers. No one here mentioned c5s, the most unreliable acft in the world lol. My comment several pages back was to my career field, not his.
No, I don't think he's military, but he didn't say he was, did he? I don't recall reading that if he did. Since he's in Sarasota, I think he actually works for one of the vendors that one of my local aerospace customers deals with down there, or he may actually work for one of their branch operations thats located there. I'm not saying who it is, because if he wants people to know, he'll say so.
copperdodge said:
So, you take offense to the dyno queen comment and then take a half page to explain how you used to hang out with the German dyno queens and then illustrate how Dinan used a 100mph wind tunnel to eeek out the last 20 hp?
Um, yeah. Well, not exactly. I wasn't "taking offense", I was just saying that I've seen all this before. I'm used to hearing that kind of devastating repartee from people on both sides of what shouldn't be a side taking issue. After several years watching and participating in the discussions I knew exactly what Danno was leading up to with his snide comment. He's a big bad racer who gets "actual real world results" at the strip and has no respect for anyone who does dyno analysis. I can't stand it when people get that buzzword mentality and automatically discount things. Dynoqueens and timechasers. Neocons and liberals. Get it?
Each approach to performance measurement has its good and bad sides, and I'm sure that no matter how good these headers actually perform, that dyno numbers and timeslips will never solve this discussion. There is absolutely no way to solve it except getting in one of these trucks before and after the swap and experiencing it for yourself.
Come to think of it, that won't even work. You can lose power in a motor but if you make the torque slope steeper by doing so you can increase the perceived acceleration and thereby make it seem like the vehicle is faster than it was. Thats why the "butt dyno" is so unreliable.

Personally, I like my GTech.

copperdodge said:
As far as fluid dynamics goes, I'm sure that bryan00rt with all his fluid knowledge will admit that if you strap a few widescreen TVs (in the upright position) on the outer skin of a C-5's wings, it's going to fuck with some airflow for sure. That is the equivalent to the exhaust flanges we are looking at here.
Only if they overlap and obstruct the exhaust ports. We'll see how it goes.

copperdodge said:
The only reason I see for the ridiculously small collector fitting is because John M & SS thought it would allow more guys to just bolt these into a stock exhaust system.
MMMnnnnoo, thats not how it went down. Plenty of KRaCkheads running 5803's on stand-off plates with big collectors. John already knew that going into this. There were drawbacks to the collector on those headers too.

copperdodge said:
Kind of like you with your supercharger motor that's desperately trying to breathe through a single FLowmaster muffler (with dual inlets). I garantee you that if you shed the cats and ran 3" duals all the way back to 3" in/out straight flow mufflers of ANY kind, you'd see large gains. :beer:
I'd guarantee that if you did more research than simply looking at my sig you'd see the evolution of my exhaust since I bought the truck. FYI, I had a Gibson straight thru on a single 3 inch coming back from the Y pipe. Our local exhaust guy cut everything off including the Y. I ended up with no cats, a Magnaflow X pipe, and a bootlegged Flowmaster thats not available in the US. As I've said many times here, the thing made so much more power that the transmission up and melted.

Now before you pull out your usual "Thanks, you've just proved my point nicely", let me point out that I'm still on KB headers, which have the same collector diameter as these new long tubes, just without the special design. The supercharger is gone, replaced by a 408 with a pretty good cam. I'll be doing tests as soon as I can, swapping between the two header designs.

I don't have my KRC headers anymore, or I'd test them too. I think that would be the most telling of the setups. They're sitting on another club member's 99 R/T CC, so maybe I could get him to do some tests too.
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scat_pack_dal said:
rarefied? my ass... this is totally off topic but this is the most stupid shit in here. even in the middle of bumfuck ohio there are multiple E36 and 46 M3s running around.
Who cares if you can see them on every corner? I don't care if you have them hanging from trees in your backyard. Rarefied doesn't mean "rare". I was talking about the financial needs behind modding one of those. I can't just call Comp up and ask them for a set of 232/236 cams for a BMW S54 inline six. Dak owners bitch about spending $5k on a supercharger when it costs $12.5k for a decent M3 SC kit. When I first got here and started browsing the for sale folder I was amazed at how people would argue over 5 bucks on a set of used 8.5mm plug wires.

So next your reading skills will say I'm being elitist by bringing money into this, right? I am not. You simply have to understand my original point was that these guys take the dyno vs. timeslip thing way off to the next 5 levels, and I have heard all the arguments before. Danno triggered my response by making his "dynoqueen" remark. That is it.

scat_pack_dal said:
i can go to any bimmer dealership in the country and pick one up.
Remind me later to call BMWNA and let them know that the whole dealer network thingy is working well. K?

scat_pack_dal said:
and in general no one gives a shit about dinan and their wind tunnel, we all could have read about it in car and driver or whatever magazine it was in.
Yeah, but then should I have said "Danno's comment reminded me of this story from my own experience, but please look at the March 2003 issue of Car and Driver" before we can talk about it?

I'd venture that no one here knew about Dinan, much less his wind tunnel, before I mentioned it. So you don't care, big deal. I think it was a useful illustration to people who hear the dyno vs. timeslip argument, and a useful thing to say whenever people start to get elitist in one crowd or the other. Danno got on Bryan for actually doing the patented Danno Lifter Adjustment, while he was at the dyno.

That reminds me - Danno actually though it was a joke and that maybe Bryan was even lying that he did that adjustment at the dyno. Why was that so hard to believe? My last dyno day, there was an M5 owner there who was talking about renting the thing by the hour so he could do some laptop adjustments. How hard is it to believe that a guy might actually pop his own valve covers and do an adjustment related by a "guru" to actually test the thing out? If Danno was the guy selling the Tornado, and someone had the opportunity to actually test the thing before and after on a dyno, wouldn't that make sense?

Instead we get the argument that Bryan is a dyno queen for doing so. Not very cool.
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white59rt said:
You got the "were" part right - and technically I never was really a business partner - you have to get something in return for 3 years of your life pissed away in order to be part of a business.Scott turned out to be the same piece of shit as most of the other dakota vendors in market - and quite frankly I dunno if I will be able to refrain myself from kicking his ass up one side the street and down the other should I ever see him face to face again.
At least you don't hold back. That is appreciated.

white59rt said:
Its amazing too that you know who I am and I have no clue who you are - did John tell you all the bad, bad stuff about me???? LMAO!!! I hope he told you all the good, good stuff too....
You know what the worst thing John has to say about you? "I thought Todd was my friend". Thats it, thats all..
scat_pack_dal said:
luckily for you i do know what rarefied means. i would go so far as to say that the group of people that actually have decent knowledge and know how of how to make these trucks quick is very esoteric. not only that but also very egotistical as well, just like you find in the bimmer community. it's not nearly as much of the actual finanical issue that i am pointing to. however, comparatively speaking to other production based pushrod V8s, these trucks carry a hefty price tag to go fast. also look at who generally owns these trucks... i'm pretty sure that in general they are not the same demographics as a bimmer owner so if you're looking at what percentage of someone's income they spend on modding cars... i think you get the picture.

Ok then. I didn't look at it that way, but you're right.

You kind of really put the light on the real problem in these forums, if you don't mind me putting the flange thing on the side for a minute. There is a lot of egos working amongst these various tuner shops. I've seen nothing but theft, deception, and outright lying around them. People are vicious with this stuff.
John was the first person I talked to when I was buying my truck, and he warned me about that. He did NOT talk bad about any specific shop, nor did he mention names. I did my research and I was not impressed by all the people who simply said this about him, "Call John, he'll take care of you." Because of this, and because the things he said went contrary to what the other shops were doing, I ended up buying a competitors "package". Which was something he also warned me about, since he prefers to design his stuff around what people want, not numbers off a menu. If I ever met you in person I'd bring my laptop and show you the months of emails between us where he was trying to iron out what he would do for me. I found it frustrating, because I was used to packages in the BMW world myself. Now that its all done with, I prefer the way he treated me.
I've ended up learning way more than I ever thought. So now here I am saying the same damn thing that I originally found aggravating - call John and he'll take care of you. I can see where that would piss someone off, because I was there. From the other side of things, it makes sense now.

Egos get out of control here, and everyone wants to make a point and go away thinking they "showed" someone or "owned" them. I've been there, done that, grew up. We're kind of stalled here until this flange can be explained, or at least we can get some numbers, right?

So everyone - take it down a few notches. Or is it going to be a fist fight at the Nationals this year? :argue:
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white59rt said:
...Long story short I never did anything to the man other than I made a bad choice in friends, the lengths he went through to try and demean for that were almost comical.....
I wasn't there to see that but the look on the guys face when he talks about you says it all to me - out of all the people he's dealt with in the Dak market, you really were the one he considered a friend. Lots of bad things can happen when you think your friend is going behind your back. I'm not going to justify anything, nor am I, Tanky, or anyone else going to speak for him at this point. You guys work that out on your own.

white59rt said:
And there is two things about me that everyone can know - I am the nicest guy in the world and would do anything to help anyone, next, I am the biggest asshole in the world when I feel like someone or something has shit on me and I NEVER HOLD BACK ;-)

white59rt said:
Tell John to work on his headers since you seem to be in his dugout now - I think it shows better customer service to take CONSTRUCTIVE criticism and turn it into a better product than lets just tell everyone to F off - this is JM were talking about.
Truthfully, John hadn't heard about this until that pic was posted and Brad exploded. All the headers were drop shipped from S&S or JetHot, and our prototypes didn't look like that at the flange. He didn't waste any time like we're doing here - the first thing he did was call S&S and demand an explanation. He was on the phone with them for a while yesterday and then he called me. Don't blame him for what went on in this thread.

white59rt said:
Having dealt with LOTS and LOTS of the dakota/durango community I can tell you this - it speaks volumes to the 'community' when you come back and say, 'after many requests we are now offering XXXXX as an option' or 'we have fixed the flange design issues, thanks for all the feedback'......just my .02 - its worth prolly -.02 to anyone who is friends with JM since it came from me....
No, its worth a lot. That is the exact proper approach. I want to see how this collector works though before we go off in other directions.
It costs a lot to get any manufacturer to change directions in mid stream, and I mentioned earlier about how little the Dakota market means to any of the big vendors. I'm going to have to play some serious brain games with these guys to get the stuff I'm building out to you all, but it has to be done.

John had to go away from the big names to a custom vendor just to get these made. Its not as easy as it was 10 years ago. The manufacturers want guaranteed sales and anything less than several thousand isn't worth their time.
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He does cause it. He trusts people right off the bat and then they hose him.
white59rt said:
I would hear from lots of other people how John would say that lil cocksucker is a backstabbing POS (because I was associated with Scott I guess??) and then I would talk to John on the phone - 'Hey brutha Todd, My Man, Hows the weather in sacramento today' - I was thinking to myself 'this guy is either crazy and needs meds or is on some good shit already'.....

...or maybe you just listened to some people who didn't like that you were friends with John?
00Dakotart said:
Thank-you Sir, but I do not beleive anyone caught your post.

Probably because it made too much sense. I got it.
00Dakotart said:
Just for the reocrd, my flanges did not look like that nor did the ports. I wish I would have taken pictures to show everyone but never thought of it. Los of pics of the headers, but none of the flanges :( Maybe that is one set that was done late on a Friday afternoon or first thing Monday morning.
My flanges didn't look that bad either, but they were irregular. I stopped short of opening my other box of longtubes and checking them out because one set was enough to get me questioning.

So for the record, I spoke with John again today, and he is waiting on S&S to step up with some service and provide the explanation. No excuses, no sob stories, we're just waiting on them. Remember we're just a small segment of a small market, they have bigger fish to deal with.
Oh hey Aaron. What fight is that in your sig? I gotta learn that move.
Those are freaking gorgeous headers. Nothing compares to a set of hand builts designed around the particular vehicle. They look very similar to the set that a certain Texas company is using on an LS2 swap into an E36 BMW.

Now, would you believe there are people who object to the ugly weld lines all along the primaries?
I doubt they're like that on the inside. The builder does them a piece at a time and probably tigs them from the inside out. The rougher part of the weld is on the outside.

At least thats how I think its done.
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