Howdy from Colorado - Dakota Durango Forum
General Automotive Discussion Miscellaneous chatter about Dodge Trucks

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
post #1 of 67 Old 02-10-2017, 02:55 PM Thread Starter
Mad-Max
Registered User
 
Mad-Max's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Falcon, CO
Posts: 42
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
 
Howdy from Colorado

Howdy folks - name is Sam - live in colorful Colorado. Planning to build a clean 2000-2004 Dak Quad Cab with a SAS on 40s - will be our family 'wheeler. Nice to have this forum for some good R&D.

Some questions I'm going to be researching will be:

- Common problems/expected longevity from the 4.7 and 5.9 (was the 5.2 still available?) / when things start to give out / what to beware of when searching the ads for the truck, etc. IE - how many miles it 'too many'. Some I'm looking at have the 4.7 with ~130,000 miles on it - still plenty of life left in them? Easy to rebuild? I'm used to the Cummins 6bts and any old-school small blocks, but don't know much about the 4.7 - basically the same as 'any other engine'?

- Same for the available transmissions and t-cases - which ones to avoid, which might be the strongest, etc?

- Pro's and con's of the dash mounted electronic t-case 'shifter' vs the floor shifter. Floor shifter not offered in 01-up Dak's?

- Power steering issues (will be upgrading gearbox and adding ram-assist etc, not sure if the factory location of the gearbox is good for a crossover conversion, or get a different gearbox all together (one that is stronger and more suited for crossover etc)?

- Hydroboost brake conversion?, or factory hardware plenty for stopping 40" tires?

That aught to keep me busy for a while -

Cheers,
- Sam

(my old truck was a 74 Diesel Power Wagon 950 on rockwells and 46's)
Mad-Max is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 67 Old 02-10-2017, 05:04 PM
DAKSPORT1PA
T.J.



 
DAKSPORT1PA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: PA
Vehicle: 2001 Dakota Quad Cab
Posts: 79,318
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
         
Welcome to the site.

"I reject your reality and substitute my own!"
DAKSPORT1PA is offline  
post #3 of 67 Old 02-10-2017, 07:39 PM
RXT
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Gainesville, Fl.
Vehicle: 99 Dakota
Modifications: Quad Cab swap, Cummins swap, Solid axle swap
Posts: 142
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13 Post(s)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad-Max View Post
Howdy folks - name is Sam - live in colorful Colorado. Planning to build a clean 2000-2004 Dak Quad Cab with a SAS on 40s - will be our family 'wheeler. Nice to have this forum for some good R&D.

Some questions I'm going to be researching will be:

- Common problems/expected longevity from the 4.7 and 5.9 (was the 5.2 still available?) / when things start to give out / what to beware of when searching the ads for the truck, etc. IE - how many miles it 'too many'. Some I'm looking at have the 4.7 with ~130,000 miles on it - still plenty of life left in them? Easy to rebuild? I'm used to the Cummins 6bts and any old-school small blocks, but don't know much about the 4.7 - basically the same as 'any other engine'?

- Same for the available transmissions and t-cases - which ones to avoid, which might be the strongest, etc?

- Pro's and con's of the dash mounted electronic t-case 'shifter' vs the floor shifter. Floor shifter not offered in 01-up Dak's?

- Power steering issues (will be upgrading gearbox and adding ram-assist etc, not sure if the factory location of the gearbox is good for a crossover conversion, or get a different gearbox all together (one that is stronger and more suited for crossover etc)?

- Hydroboost brake conversion?, or factory hardware plenty for stopping 40" tires?

That aught to keep me busy for a while -

Cheers,
- Sam

(my old truck was a 74 Diesel Power Wagon 950 on rock wells and 46's)

Nice seeing you here Sam

Considering your build (and knowing your previous builds) let me take you down a different perspective. The way you are asking sounds like you're trying to find a running truck to do a SAS. -I would suggest that too if you already have the truck, but if you want the perfect Dakota platform, you'd be better off looking for a decent body & chassis, and pick the engine and drivetrain from there.

Heres why. IMO, if you wanted a runner, to convert the best Dakota layout for such a build would be the 97-99 models. These came with the 318 and 360 V8, but they also came with either the A500, 46RE automatic or a manual (which were much harder to find) and the transfer case would be an NP231D. These aren't particularly that heavy duty.

However, you don't have a quad cab option in those years. The quads came out in 2000 and by then there were two significant changes that will make a difference in your build, if you use whats there. First in 2001, Dodge began using a new rack and pinion steering system in the 4x4s which you're going to have to remove and retrofit a steering box to the frame (and Dodge managed to change details in the frame which will make installing a steering box to it a bit more difficult) The biggest difference is engines. 2000 was the end for the 318, replaced by the 4.7L V8. Personally I'm not a fan of this engine and I don't think it's Ma Mopar's best idea either. The 4.7 is not supported well in the performance market and there were a few "issues" (Do your research on this engine before you choose it) The downside is, most V8 quad cabs will have this engine. There was also the 360, but it too was discontinued by 2003 These are usually hard to find in a quad cab , but they are out there.

If it were me, I'd look for a decent body and chassis. It won't matter if it's a V6 or 2wd or something you wouldn't want to drive because all that wil come out. You'll have engine options. The 318 and 360 are some of the best engine Mopar made and they are still well supported and you can make all sort of energy out of them. You could also consider engines not available, such as a 5.7 Hemi or even a 4BT Cummins. This will also open up plenty of transmission options. You can do a built 47RH or RE or shove a standard transmission in there and you can use whichever t-case, be it 205, 203/205 doubler, Atlas, 241HD, you name it, and if you pick your own t-case, you can pick which side drop you want and even go with the cheaper passenger side Dana 60 king pin axles, rather than the "undesirable" new Dodge D60 driver's side pumpkin, or expensive hi pinion Ford D60 axle.

From experience, if you push the front axle forward so 40s will clear the fenders, when you steer, you'll probably need a steering box that has a pitman arm that is pointing forward. In my Dakota, I have a modified Dakota steering box that uses a (dropped) pitman arm thats facing rearward and the front axle is pushed forward a few inches. There is a clearance issue between the pitman arm and the top of the pumpkin. (there is about 6" of clearance) I'm probably going to put in bump stops to prevent contact and I'm going to run itů.my truck was built more for Florida mud, rather than rock crawling. I really don't have a need for tremendous axle articulation, I'm not even running coil-overs. But knowing what you put Bud thru, you'll need the clearance.

Ed
RXT is offline  
 
post #4 of 67 Old 02-10-2017, 09:51 PM Thread Starter
Mad-Max
Registered User
 
Mad-Max's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Falcon, CO
Posts: 42
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
 
Thanks for the welcome guys

thanks for all the thoughts there Ed - I was hoping you'd chime in - much appreciated. One thing that I need to add to the decision matrix is that we want to find a really nice, low mile running/driving 4x4 that we can wheel for a while 'as-is', which afterwards we'll beef up, and I really don't want to do much in the way of custom body swaps and such, so that's why we're mostly scanning for a 2000-2004 quad cab as the starting point.

And yah we're planning to wheel the Dak like we wheeled Bud - we'll just have a bit less belly clearance and will have to limit the rocks to the 3-4 footers...

- Sam
Mad-Max is online now  
post #5 of 67 Old 02-10-2017, 10:23 PM
RXT
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Gainesville, Fl.
Vehicle: 99 Dakota
Modifications: Quad Cab swap, Cummins swap, Solid axle swap
Posts: 142
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13 Post(s)
 
In that case, I'd say you got one year to pick from, thats the 2000. The 360 was available and rack and pinion wasn't.

Ed
RXT is offline  
post #6 of 67 Old 02-11-2017, 01:01 AM Thread Starter
Mad-Max
Registered User
 
Mad-Max's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Falcon, CO
Posts: 42
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
 
weellll okay then - 2000 it is

IIRC the '00 also is the last year for the floor lever for the t-case ja?
Mad-Max is online now  
post #7 of 67 Old 02-11-2017, 04:36 AM
RXT
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Gainesville, Fl.
Vehicle: 99 Dakota
Modifications: Quad Cab swap, Cummins swap, Solid axle swap
Posts: 142
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13 Post(s)
 
Not sure on that one, ----You could probably do any quad cab, for the most part they really didn't change much and they are going to perform about the same. Of course if you plan to wheel a stock Dakota until you do the upgrades, consider there are a few other weaknesses, you might not be aware of. First there are no viable suspension lift kits for the Dak, especially those which have rack and pinion. Lifting the Dak is limited to body lifts and cranking the torsion bars….not that it will matter, since you got more radical plans for the truck, but if you're in the need for a little lift in the intern, thats it.

Next, the front wheel bearings are going to be unit hubs. You'll want to avoid offset rims if possible -you know the reasons

Finally the front differential is going to be a very light Dana 35 or 8" corporate. Both are small units that have aluminum housings and prone to cracking (mostly the D35)
Due to the size of the front diff, you might not want to run a tire bigger than a 32 or 33 (max)

Ed
RXT is offline  
post #8 of 67 Old 02-11-2017, 03:02 PM Thread Starter
Mad-Max
Registered User
 
Mad-Max's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Falcon, CO
Posts: 42
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
 
thanks Ed. We're not planning to lift it or do anything major until we do the SAS etc - we'll just put some decent all-terrains on it for the the short term, and then BOMB it later.

One thing I'm seeing is problems with the transmissions, and I'm looking into what the issues are and what can be done etc. We definitely want an auto.

We're also going to look into lockers for the front and rear, depending on what is under the truck when we get it.

- Sam
Mad-Max is online now  
post #9 of 67 Old 02-12-2017, 06:55 PM Thread Starter
Mad-Max
Registered User
 
Mad-Max's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Falcon, CO
Posts: 42
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
 
here's a question: if I wanted to only get a truck with a 360, and a quad cab, I'm seeing the available years are 2000-2004, and I'm trying to determine which auto trannys came behind the 360 in those years, and what the common pro's and con's are with those transmissions?

Also, trying to fully understand exactly what the electronic (dash) system 'does', and IIUC when you switch from 2H to 4H (or 4L) the switch signals the TCCM which signals the encoder motor to switch gears, ja?

I'm thinking hard about using an Atlas, so all of the t-case hardware would need to be removed. If I were to get an '01-04 truck could all of the t-case hardware and electronics be removed/unplugged without jacking with the computer system(s)?

Ideally I'll find a clean 2000 4x4 QC, and either drop in an Atlas or use the existing t-case...
Mad-Max is online now  
post #10 of 67 Old 02-13-2017, 06:01 PM
RXT
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Gainesville, Fl.
Vehicle: 99 Dakota
Modifications: Quad Cab swap, Cummins swap, Solid axle swap
Posts: 142
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13 Post(s)
 
Let me start with a correction. Dodge began using rack and pinion starting in 2000 not 2001, so that means if you wanted the Quad Cab, you also got R&P steering, no matter what year you got, and you'll have to address it when you do the SAS…..

I believe the automatic used behind the 5.9 was the 46RE. Typical problems are the usual stuff, but usually very dependable.

The transfer case…. I believe the t-case will be the NV233HD, how much is the computer (PCM) involved? I haven't a clue, and I don't have a FSM for those years, to look it up. Assuming the worse, the only way around is either start with something that doesn't have that computer, decomputerize it, or have a computer guru reprogram or rewire the thing.

So here are some thoughts. If the PCM is involved in the transfer case, the only work arounds I can think of (having not confirmed if any of this will work) is to swap PCMs to one which doesn't have or use a transfer case program. My 99 originally had a manual shifting NV231 transfer case, so it couldn't have a program for the t-case, you might also be able to use a PCM out of a 2wd where there isn't a t-case at all. Another way of telling is to find out if PCMs are different between 2wds and 4wds.

I tried to look up Atlas and see if they have an application for a Dakota, but it didn't look like they had one available for the Dakota…..it might be because the t-case is computer controlled or they don't expect customers to purchase them for a Dakota Even the Ram 1500 doesn't show up, so who knows

Another route to take might be to start off with a 2wd, but that means you won't be able to use it off road in factory form, before the work begins. But you will not have computer issues.

Ed
RXT is offline  
post #11 of 67 Old 02-13-2017, 08:21 PM Thread Starter
Mad-Max
Registered User
 
Mad-Max's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Falcon, CO
Posts: 42
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
 
Thanks Ed. Looks like a 2000 model year truck will be about the best overall choice for what we want to ultimately do.

Another quandary I'm mulling over is 'gear ratios' - I'm looking at either 5.38's or 5.86's. With 40s, according to my gear-speed calculator, I have the following to choose from:

5.38's, at 70 mph = 2200 rpm, at 80 mph = 2500 rpm

5.86's, at 70 mph = 2400 rpm, at 80 mph = 2750 rpm

Either actually look pretty decent, and my axle guy is telling me that 5.86s aren't available for a GM 14 bolt, which is what I want to run in the back (mostly because they have the highest pinion height) - otherwise I'll go for a D60. So, I'd like to ask y'all if the numbers above look 'good' for a stock 360, or does anyone have recommendations for the higher gears?
Mad-Max is online now  
post #12 of 67 Old 02-13-2017, 09:21 PM
RXT
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Gainesville, Fl.
Vehicle: 99 Dakota
Modifications: Quad Cab swap, Cummins swap, Solid axle swap
Posts: 142
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13 Post(s)
 
Looking it up, the lowest ratio you can get for the 14 bolt would be 5.13 That puts your speeds at; 70 mph @ 2081 rpm, or 80 mph @ 2379 rpm. Thats about ballpark of what you're looking at.
To give you a comparison, as I recalled, my 318 on 32 inch tires and 3.55 gears would be doing 70 mph @ 1800 rpm and at 80 mph @ 2058 rpms. Thats very close to running 5.13 with 40" tires, and you'll have a couple small advantages, one, you'll be turning more rpm and two, you're pushing it with more torque (360 vs 318)

On the other side of the coin, you'll probably want really deep gears to climb rocks. The lower, the better. However, 5.13 will roughly match a factory gear set, relative to tire size….thats where the Atlas (or at least a doubler) comes in.

I think you'll be fine on 5.13s

Ed
RXT is offline  
post #13 of 67 Old 02-13-2017, 11:53 PM Thread Starter
Mad-Max
Registered User
 
Mad-Max's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Falcon, CO
Posts: 42
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
 
what I'm also wondering is what the 'happy' rpm range for a 360 when cruising on the highway - IOW, a Cummins always seems 'happy' at 1800-2000 rpm no matter what generation it is - I'm wanting to hear what is that 'happy' rpm is for a 360 Magnum in a mid side truck like a Dakota or Durango? I'll use that as a significant goal point for gear selection too. I'm thinking with the heavier tires and such I'll want to up the rpm's a bit so the engine is further into its power range - maybe into the 2300-2500 rpm range with the cruise set on the highway.

So far I'm not seeing any major issues with the base truck selection or the available drivelines, and that's good.
Mad-Max is online now  
post #14 of 67 Old 02-14-2017, 02:17 AM
RXT
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Gainesville, Fl.
Vehicle: 99 Dakota
Modifications: Quad Cab swap, Cummins swap, Solid axle swap
Posts: 142
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13 Post(s)
 
Well, if I was to go by my Dakota when it had the 318, I'd say 2000 rpm was a pretty happy median, at highway speed. Remember that's overdrive. If you had an old 727 with no o/d, your cruising rpm at 70 would be 3187 rpm. That would be beyond redline in a stock Cummins (and max with a 3200rpm GSK) but the 360 can turn even faster if you wanted….at the expense of fuel. BTW, peak torque with the 360 would be at 3250 rpm (335ft-lbs) But that cancels the benefits of overdrive.


The question is will a stock, used 360 produce enough torque in o/d (at around 2000 rpms) to push you at cruising speed with 40s?
I say yes. Of course you will be pushing bigger tires and more overall weight, but as I was saying before, you'll have about 200 more rpm than my Dakota did at any given speed and the 360 make more torque. Will there be times when the engine lugs? I say if you're going up a steep or long incline, the engine may lose some speed and rpm, but you can feed it more fuel and drop a gear if you had to. I think you'll be fine….Of course for piece of mind, you'll probably want to use a lower axle ratio, which means dump the 14 bolt idea and find a rear Dana 70

Ed
RXT is offline  
post #15 of 67 Old 02-14-2017, 02:51 AM Thread Starter
Mad-Max
Registered User
 
Mad-Max's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Falcon, CO
Posts: 42
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
 
- copy all. Great discussions here Ed - just the right amount of depth I was hoping to get into. This R&D and these discussions really help me get my head around the 'big picture', which is how I always like to begin a new project. I have to say - my wife and I are pretty stoked about how this one will turn out
Mad-Max is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Dakota Durango Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Linear Mode Linear Mode
Rate This Thread:


Forum Jump

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome