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Apologies for Questions from a N00b-- Hemi Swap 03 Durango?

2K views 8 replies 3 participants last post by  EricF 
#1 ·
So, mostly I've dealt with actually working on Volvos over the years, done many engine swaps, built/installed aftermarket EMS on a couple cars (Megasquirt, VEMS), fairly involved automotive stuff. Not a total dummy, just pretty unfamiliar with these platforms although I've driven my 03 4.7 4x2 Durango up to 253k miles before it started losing the trans.

Have been reading/researching extensively over the last few weeks, thanks for all the awesome documentation here.

Can you guys critique my plan, just to make sure I'm not missing something obvious that could blow it all up and leave me stuck with lots of extra unplanned work?

Goal is a daily driver that can tow, maybe a mild cam in an otherwise totally stock Hemi 5.7, preferably later model after the output increase but still with conventional power steering setup.

I'm looking to get a full changeover takeout from an 09-11 RAM, including 4x2 trans (mine is toast, it appears they also use the 545RFE, so should be a bolt-in in terms of driveshaft and mount/crossmember?), e-throttle pedal, wiring, gauge cluster, etc.

Will preserve all late model wiring harnesses, control modules, and basically just let it function in the Durango body, while leaving original climate controls etc intact to control those systems as originally equipped.

Starting with a RAM base, and being 4x2, would the oil pan or pickup tube need modification? I was planning on using the engine-swaps.com mounts, are these intended to work with the 545RFE and stock transmission placement? Any other known clearance issues? I will just weld some mounts if so, but like the potential time saving of off the shelf.

I have a million questions it seems, but will leave it there for now so it isn't totally unreadable...

Anyone have suggestions/issues with this train of thought?

It has been suggested to me by my peers to just liquidate and get a Trailblazer SS, but the Durango has been totally awesome for us over the years. Plus, I suspect it may be slightly quicker when all is said and done.

Thanks in advance!! Any Volvo questions I'll be happy to help... :beer:
 
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#2 ·
the main headache that you will run into (in my opion), will be the electronic side of this swap. Being a 03 durango, i think you will be running a different comperbus system. that is if you are planning to use the pcm from the new engine. it can be done. However, use may have trouble lights on for whatever reasons. You may be able to get away with change sensors and other plug ins back to older versions if you stay with the older computer bus. you need to do your research in the area of you swap. The motor and transmission will fit for sure. Being 2 wheel drive will be easier for you also.

I'm some what in the process of doing a hemi swap myself. In the process of gathering parts and making changes to the motor. But i haven't started the tear out yet. I was going to swap an 2010 ram motor in a 01 dakota, but I came across a good deal on my 05 dakota. So that is getting the hemi.
 
#4 ·
For electronics, you'd be better off sticking to the same generation as your Dakota for a donor vehicle. Not sure how much the engine sensors changed over the years on the Hemi's, but I know the canbus changed from what your durango uses. Pretty sure you can use your 4.7l PCM, will just need to get a custom SCT tune on it from Hemifever or FlyinRyan. Depending on how much work you want to do, you can just use the newer intake manifold and apache heads on the older Hemi and get most of the same power as newer ones. And then no be worried about whether the sensors match up. Or if they will work, grab some of the older sensors and use them on newer motor. Then the only issue may be the communication with the newer transmission electronics.
 
#5 ·
I was thinking of swapping everything over from the donor, engine/trans with all wiring and control modules, change out pedal for potentiometer type, see what can be done for the gauge cluster, etc. They sell palletized swaps on ebay that basically can be started and run on the pallet. Would be really nice to just transplant all that into a vehicle, and have all the newer electronics/etc for powertrain systems.
Here is an SRT8 example of that (wish I had deeper pockets for this)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/14-Challeng...554263?hash=item3ac7f0dc97:g:H0cAAOSwIgNXiP4p

What vehicle systems are integrated into the canbus, and rely upon a signal from the engine/transmission electronics? Obviously gauge cluster, does the 03 climate control look for anything from the engine control module? Anything else electronic in the vehicle that would cease to function? I'm guessing ABS, airbags, unless these have their own independent control modules that are ignorant enough of what the engine is doing? The car is an SXT, so almost no options, no immobilizer, etc.

What vehicle systems in the 2011 are integrated into the canbus, and will interrupt the engine or transmission's behavior if they are not present in the 03? Traction control, ABS, etc?

If everything is more integrated than I was assuming, then maybe an 03-04 engine makes more sense, and as you said heads, intake, and perhaps a mild cam would help with the power output.

Is there a good resource with documentation of the different renditions of canbus systems and engine/transmission control? I can go through wiring diagrams, but we have compiled some theoretical overviews of this stuff in Volvo land that makes it a little easier to get the big picture.

It is really cost and time effective to shop a complete swap and not have to open up the engine (which can become a slippery slope), but if I would be looking at swapping over newer ABS systems and climate control or integrating older ones to the newer electronics, that sort of thing quickly kills that approach. If that pallet linked above had a 2011 5.7 Hemi and all the same included components for say, $3500-$4000, then that is pretty much what I am looking at and seems to be the going rate for such a swap setup.

Thanks again for the thoughts, just trying to get my ducks in a row here!
 
#6 ·
After reading more about the canbus system, it seems more clear why most folks lean towards a same generation motor/trans. Although it might be fun to do something newer and piss off the central nervous system in spite of itself, it probably makes more sense to do an 03-05 motor and just swap over head/intake.

On that note, does the 6.1 SRT intake provide any advantage over the later 5.7? It appears the later 5.7 intake is variable geometry, so that is something that would need to be programmed for I'm guessing.

On car-part.com this stuff is pretty cheap. A head gasket kit, heads for 200/side, intake another few hundred, and I get a sneak preview of wall condition etc as well. Just run the risk of finding a crappy ridge at the top and decision of buttoning it back up as-is or not.

Jeep SRT headers also seem to be pretty cheap, would I be right in assuming they are an upgrade over 03-05 RAM headers? Are they good to go in terms of clearance in these swaps? Seem pretty low profile.

Thanks again for the help and input.

Durango will fit tidily in my garage though, in spite of work bench layouts so logistics get some bonus points there. Project grows closer to reality.
 
#8 ·
Thanks. It looks like the truck motors are the ones that got the variable geometry intake runners, and maybe the car motors did not? Also front mounted throttle body on those so e-fan conversion required? Assume we also want throttle body to match the new intake manifold?

In looking into the head swap, my plan would be to do a little bit of chamber work on the heads to increase volume a bit, as well as use cometic gaskets of a proper thickness to get a decent compression ratio in the end. The port flow difference on the newer heads is wild. 330CFM out of a factory casting is awesome. No wonder those things make power.

It looks like pushrods and cam need to be changed out as well. Not a big deal if heads are off anyway, just more pieces to collect...

So to get the output of 09+:
late model heads, intake, pushrods, cam (stock or aftermarket), cometic gaskets (calculate thickness needed once CC volume measured), headers (SRT8 jeep), e-fan and shroud. Probably an extra $1k-1200 or so all said and done... Wild for the overall difference in the end.

And major items for swap:
03-05 RAM 5.7 (for me, transmission will also be part of this), motor mounts, radiator hoses, AC lines, power steering lines?, 5.7 engine harness, PCM reflash (will also need to reflash based on engine modifications above I'm guessing), DBW pedal (are the pedal bracket mounting points same or similar by any chance?), exhaust work, new driveshaft guibo, all fluids, etc.

Wondering what a realistic overall budget is for this, and if I can really spring for the newer heads. There is a complete engine/trans/accessories on Ebay out of an 03-04 RAM, but I might spring for a rebuilt transmission and try to find an engine with all accessories and harness/etc. Just depends on respective costs I guess.

Sorry for rambling stream of consciousness, hopefully if this all goes through this can be a good resource for someone one day.
 
#9 ·
I'm still here, still pondering. Think I will park the Durango and start dismantling soon. Leaning towards a full swap takeout from 03-04 RAM, then doing a cam, water pump, refresh while it's out etc. I'd love to do a 6.1 as there are some in FL that are not too pricey, but by the time I nickel and dime all the RAM stuff onto it, the price really creeps. Same with above scenario of moving to Eagle heads and manifolds etc.

For anyone else reading and considering this, the big difference in the later motors as far as running them in older cars is the crank triggering change which corresponds to appearance of VVT system. So you would need to swap crank trigger and sensor (possibly timing cover as well) from an older hemi onto the newer one, and find a way to either control or disable the VVT system. Apart from that, I would think you should be able to swap a couple sensors and accessories if necessary, and run it with the older electronics.

With some ingenuity and dismantler shopping, it should be pretty cost effective. But, I would like to save some energy for making the cabin of the truck a little nicer too while it's out (bluetooth head unit and replacing the tired speakers, adding sound deadening and resealing door jambs, etc).

Will also be replacing the master cylinder while it's out as pedal tends to sink a little bit and takes increasing effort while stopped at lights, and probably get a new AC compressor for the donor engine because Florida.

Could someone give me a little more detail in how to have someone tune the existing 4.7 PCM? Or if I get the PCM from the truck, will that suffice? Is it just email tuning with certain members here based on datalogging and a softloader like the diablo thingy?

Hope everyone is enjoying my morning ramblings!
 
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