Amsoil vs 3,000 mile change. [Archive] - Dakota Durango Message Board

Amsoil Dealer

06-09-2006, 02:35 PM

Amsoil might guarantee that you can go 25,000 miles between oil changes but it doesn't guarantee your engine.
Amsoil DOES NOT guaranteee that you can go 25,000 miles between oil changes. And NEVER have I recommended 25k oil change intervals to anyone.

Here is my Amsoil 25k Mile Extended Oil Drain Interval / Amsoil Ea (25k Mile) Oil Filter Thread (http://www.dakota-durango.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15100)

For anyone considering Amsoil Extended Oil Drains:

I try to be very clear when talking about extended drains. 10,000 mile oil change intervals are absolutely possible. Up to a 25,000 mile interval is possible under certain conditions, but please read further for additional information. The KEY POINT is that --- The 3,000 mile oil change (heavily promoted by BIG OIL and the Quickie Lubes) is overkill, especially with superior synthetic oils.

The "mention" of 25,000 mile / 1 year oil change intervals on the back of the bottle is NOT an absolute! One must realize that is for non-severe service (highway miles where you have stable operating conditions) and that the indicated drain interval also has a time period of 1 year maximum as well. Personally, I would not go 25k miles between oil changes, but I regularly go between 11k and 12k miles between oil changes. Because that is all the miles I put on my vehicle in one year. I havn't driven over 12k miles in one year since I left Georgia in 1987.
__________________

***** READ THIS PLEASE EVERYONE *****

THE BOTTOM LINE - Under a combination of city and highway circumstances, AMSOIL recommends up to 2 to 3 times longer oil change intervals, which means up to 2 to 3 times the equipment manufacturer's recommendation (If your owners manual states 5k mile oil change intervals, then 10-15k mile oil change intervals would be alright based on your personal driving habits ... (the harder you drive, the sooner the change the oil). Proper filtration is also very important. Amsoil's recommendations are only when you use Amsoil Oil Filters which are designed for extended intervals. Amsoil Oil Filters are rated for 1 year service as well.

Notice: Modifications to engine will change service intervals.

Notice: More frequent service may be required under severe service operating conditions.

Notice: For drain interval beyond 3x manufacturers recommendations ---
(especially the 25k mile change) - oil analysis is recommended for establishing drain intervals.

Amsoil has been in the oil industry for 30+ years. Due to Amsoil's superior synthetic composition and advanced performance additives, AMSOIL performs much longer than do conventional petroleum and other synthetic motor oils. AMSOIL has 30+ years of manufacturing experience and mountains of data and tests to make these claims possible.

https://www.amsoil.com/dealer/websites/graphics/amsoilbar.jpg

SmokinCummins

06-09-2006, 02:49 PM

Some people actually change their own oil, so I have no clue what is charged at the quickie lube.

I have a problem believing ANYTHING Amsoil claims because of all the misleading advertising they do. How are you supposed to know what is fact and was is a twisted for the purpose of advertising. Not knocking the Amsoil guy, most dealers are not aware of alot of Amsoils :spam: .

For instance, before the current EA filter came out, they claimed a 5 micron filter. I talked with other dealers (thats right, I am a dealer), called the teck line at amsoil, and even sent emails. No one would release the test data, WHY, because Amsoil knows while they can claim 5 micron, it is really a much larger number. This is legal, because they will filter 5 micron - but it is a very small percent, I would guess 10%or less efficient. In reality, it was probably a 30 micron absolute filter.

Now they claim 15 micron at 98.7% which is considered absolute, but where is the misleading info. I bet it is there.

SmokinCummins

06-09-2006, 02:53 PM

Amsoil dealer, After reading your last statement, I must say :biggthump you are a stand up guy. You are one of the few Amsoil dealers out there that tell the truth about 25k oil changes.

N56629

06-09-2006, 04:44 PM

Notice: For drain interval beyond 3x manufacturers recommendations
(especially the 25k mile change) - oil analysis is recommended for establishing drain intervals. ---

How much does a good oil analysis cost these days? Isn't it true that your engine conditions may change and there is no way to establish an interval beyond 25,000 miles of use?

Shatto

06-09-2006, 05:20 PM

www.amsoil.com is a pretty good place to find out the cost of their oil analysis, with Oil Analyzers, Inc., their subsidiary.
I bet Google could bring up other places near you.

Short story to make a point about the value of oil analysis;
Around 100,000 miles my 98 3.9 automatic Dakota began surging, on cruise, as the torque converter unlocked and re locked. A bit annoying.
Three dealers and two, including the Mr. Big, transmission shops, said I needed a new transmission.
I had a long talk with the tech at Amsoil about my transmission oil samples and his response was that not only that there was no sign of mechanical problem, but that the wear metals were unusually low. It was not a mechanical problem. It wasn't. The solenoids failed. 400,000 miles later.

Using oil analysis to be sure things are okay, my original engine and transmission have gone 500,000 miles.

N56629

06-09-2006, 07:15 PM

My point is, oil analysis to determine change intervals, is an additional cost. In your initial post you didn't take that into account. You also compared having someone else do your oil changes with conventional oil to doing your own oil changes with amsoil.

Since your driving is far from being typical, your 500,000 miles is totally irrelevant to 99.999% of all car/truck owners. A more typical owner would put on more like 20,000 miles a year and own the vehicle no more than ten years. That amounts to 200,000 for the life of the vehicle. I have two vehicles with over 200,000 miles on them that have had nothing but the cheapest oil WalMart has to offer and those crappy Fram filters. Both are now rust buckets but run perfectly. I would say the resale value on them and your 500,000 mile truck are roughly the same. I would also say that you have invested far more in fancy lubricants than I have in common everyday lubricants.

SmokinCummins

06-09-2006, 07:58 PM

Sampling costs $20-$25 plus shipping, and don't forget the filters for the bypass system and the make up oil that fills those new filters.

SmokinCummins

06-09-2006, 08:04 PM

BTW, you keep throwing you mileage out there, I am making over 1000 ft lbs of torque on the ground running over 45 psi and have 315,000 miles on my truck. Engine has never been opened other than removing the valve cover to swap for bigger injectors. Rear is stock and untouched except for oil changes. Tranny is modified to handle the power level. All on petroleum oil.

Amsoil Dealer

06-09-2006, 09:34 PM

Amsoil dealer, After reading your last statement, I must say :biggthump you are a stand up guy. You are one of the few Amsoil dealers out there that tell the truth about 25k oil changes.
THANK YOU ... I pride myself on being just that, "a stand up guy", and telling the truth.

How much does a good oil analysis cost these days? Isn't it true that your engine conditions may change and there is no way to establish an interval beyond 25,000 miles of use?
TRUE, Analysis is not the END ALL to understanding how well a particular oil holds up in an engine.

So ... let's first talk Oil Analysis:

A UOA (Used Oil Analysis) is a trend analysis "per vehicle" and reports will be different "per vehicle". You can not compare across brands or between vehicles. UOA's are not used to determine "oil quality", but ... the report will inform you if the oil is suitable for continued use (i.e. extended drain).

Oil analysis can detect:

Fuel dilution of lubrication oil
Dirt contamination in the oil
Antifreeze in the oil
Excessive bearing wear
Misapplication of lubricants

Some wear is normal, but abnormal levels of a particular material can give an
early warning of impending problems and possibly prevent a major breakdown.

Early detection can:

Reduce repair bills
Reduce catastrophic failures
Increase machinery life
Reduce non-scheduled downtime

Early detection with oil analysis can allow for corrective action such as repairing an air intake leak before major damage occurs. Probably one of the major advantages of an oil analysis program is being able to anticipate problems and schedule repair work to avoid downtime during a critical time of use.

Oil analysis involves sampling and analyzing oil for various properties and materials to monitor wear and contamination in an engine, transmission or hydraulic system. Sampling and analyzing on a regular basis establishes a baseline of normal wear and can help indicate when abnormal wear or contamination is occurring.

Oil analysis works like this.

Oil that has been inside any moving mechanical apparatus for a period of time reflects the exact condition of that assembly. Oil is in contact with engine or mechanical components as wear metallic trace particles enter the oil. These particles are so small they remain in suspension. Many products of the combustion process also will become trapped in the circulating oil. The oil becomes a working history of the machine.

Particles caused by normal wear and operation will mix with the oil. Any externally caused contamination also enters the oil. By identifying and measuring these impurities, you get an indication of the rate of wear and of any excessive contamination. An oil analysis also will suggest methods to reduce accelerated wear and contamination.

The typical oil analysis tests for the presence of a number of different materials to determine sources of wear, find dirt and other contamination, and even check for the use of appropriate lubricants.

https://www.amsoil.com/dealer/websites/graphics/amsoilbar.jpg

viperkota

06-10-2006, 12:37 AM

Sampling costs $20-$25 plus shipping, and don't forget the filters for the bypass system and the make up oil that fills those new filters.
are you changing the bypass filters when you do an oil sample?

SmokinCummins

06-10-2006, 03:01 AM

I don't use a bypass system. I strongly considered it, but decided against it. I just change the oil and filter when it is time. I base time on use of the truck. I change it at 3,000 miles when I am running heavily fueled. A heavily fueled diesel loads the oil with soot, and also raw diesel fuel. My big injectors flow 130 liters per hour. When I am towing and otherwise on the highway with towing injectors, I generally change at 6,000 but have gone as high as 10,000.

Shatto

06-11-2006, 01:33 AM

Smoker,
Check the site. Amsoil now has the filters for the Cummins.
Have Steve set you up with the saves money-buy it cheaper program.

viperkota

06-11-2006, 03:00 AM

Smoker,
Check the site. Amsoil now has the filters for the Cummins.
Have Steve set you up with the saves money-buy it cheaper program.

if i read it correctly in another thread, smokin cummins is an amsoil dealer

Shatto

06-11-2006, 06:03 AM

Come to think of it, I think I saw that too. Good thing some of what we say is for others too.

Shatto

06-18-2006, 01:59 AM

Wasting time re-reading all the posts? I wonder.
I concluded that there is arguement clouding something obvious. What we have here, is choice;

Smokin is an Amsoil dealer who elects not to use the products from his own store.
N56629 thinks oil analysis is too expensive.
Viperkota wants information. (I get the results before changing the by-pass, but change the spin-on at the recommended mileage).
And so, on.

Point is; Amsoil is a product line that gives the user of those kind of products the ability to decide what is best for himself, and act accordingly.

We all get to chose! Isn't America wonderful?

N56629

06-18-2006, 04:52 AM

Yes, in America you can even be an Amsoil whore. :mullet:

Shatto

06-18-2006, 04:56 AM

Or drive a Blue Thing with no suspension.

Must be great to drive in winter.

Sounds like you belong at; www.DodgeDakotas.com they really get off on boy's locker room humor and insults.

Shatto

06-18-2006, 08:41 AM

Just wondering, guy's;

Do you walk into department stores and yell out, insulting their salespeople and the products they carry?
Why do you demonstrate manners you wouldn't use at your mothers home, here?

This site is an Amsoil store.
Steve Roark founded it to offer information on products.
The purpose is education, not debate.

Some of us have added experiences to assist people who are learning about Amsoil.
Steve has expended great energy answering questions, as we've seen wherever he is. If he doesn't answer to the satisfaction of the questioneer, he continues providing information.

Why not contribute something useful to the conversation? Computerized bowel-movements only demonstrate immaturity.

N56629

06-18-2006, 03:36 PM

Shatto, I've told you before that your style of driving is pretty much irrelevant to everyday driving. You also spam every dodge website with the same info.

Your so-called feat has been done by many others and with ordinary dino oil. There's a cab with over 1.6 million miles on his Plymoth Fury. You can find over three thousand Mopars with over 200,000 miles here. (http://www.allpar.com/old/club/viewall.php) I don't think any of them mention amsoil so you better jump on that.

If you had put on 500k miles over a period of fifty years then it might be impressive. Some of your claims require that you drive 200 miles a day 365 days a year for seven years. Since you spend so much time on the internet that is very doubtful.

This isn't about shouting down a product. This about YOU and your spamming. If you are an amsoil dealer in training then just say so.

Shatto

06-18-2006, 11:35 PM

N56629,

You are right. My driving is not like the majority.
Most drivers don't have the reason to drive like taxis, couriers, long haul trucks and delivery vehicles.
For tax reasons I probably should have replaced the Dakota; but it sure feels good to only have low insurance rates and a few mantainance bills, to pay.

You are correct about most high mileage vehicles using conventional oil.
In the hundred years of the automobile, synthetic was invented in the early 1930's, and unused until Amsoil developed the first commercially available oil only 30 years ago. Big Oil didn't jump on the bandwagon until a few years ago. A major reason being, their conventional oil was rapidly becoming obsolete, not being to meet engine lubrication requirements. Amsoil was ahead of the curve.

1998 3.9 automatic, Dakota. 500,000 miles. Re-calculate.

Me;
If testamonials are SPAM; Guilty!
If going to other Dakota sites and telling my story is SPAM; Guilty!
If telling others I believe in a product is SPAM, Guilty!
I signed up, as an Amsoil Dealer over ten years ago, to buy wholesale. I'm not willing to expend the energy to build a business. Therefore, I'm not in training.

In the 1960's I worked for my father, who conducted hunting and photographic Safaris, in Ethiopia. Among my tasks, all learning experiences as I began in my early teens, was; mantaining and reparing binoculars, cameras, kerosene pressure lanturns, rifles, Land Rovers and Jeeps, flat tires and so on.
By the second year I noticed my father gave directions and my Ethiopian brother and I executed them. A few years later we had trained the crew well enough they did almost everything by themselves. We sat back.
Point #1. Clients were amazed to see a small efficient crew. The rest of African Safari crews were highly unionized and each did only one task. I learned business management.
Point #2. Fourty years later I begin to see the wisdom of my fathers teaching style. I was allowed to learn by doing, his feedback being restricted to questions and asking if I'd heard about the way so-and-so did something. I learned there was more than one way, and to look at other ways of doing things.
Point #3. Some people are encouraged and learn by hearing how someone before them did it. I'm demonstrating another possibility.
Point #4. Many people have no concept how long their vehicle can last or what it is capible of. If they learn their vehicle can go just 100,000 more miles than they thought it could, without major mantainance, they would be able to save themselves a great deal of mony, not having to replace it as soon as they originally thought.

As to the amount of time you and I and others spend on the internet. You are absolutely right.
We should do the most productive thing possible.

N56629

06-19-2006, 12:17 AM

Big Oil didn't jump on the bandwagon until a few years ago. A major reason being, their conventional oil was rapidly becoming obsolete, not being to meet engine lubrication requirements. Amsoil was ahead of the curve.

Actually, the high cost of refining caught up to the price of synthetics. It was simply a case of economics and demand, with demand being only a tiny part of it. I would bet the demand is still better than 90% conventional oil. Amsoil will eventually become obsolete, or at least their current business model, as the big oil companies start selling synthetics at half the price of amsoil.

"If testamonials are SPAM; Guilty!"

I also think Jehovah Witnesses testify to the equivilent of spam. They don't miss a chance either and tend to really annoy people.

"I signed up, as an Amsoil Dealer over ten years ago, to buy wholesale. I'm not willing to expend the energy to build a business. Therefore, I'm not in training."

In that case be honest enough to use a disclaimer. The whole amsoil business model is a pyrimid. I mean what kind of reputable business allows just anyone to become a dealer in order to buy at a discount?

"Point #4. Many people have no concept how long their vehicle can last or what it is capible of. If they learn their vehicle can go just 100,000 more miles than they thought it could, without major mantainance, they would be able to save themselves a great deal of mony, not having to replace it as soon as they originally thought."

How often do you think the original owner puts on 100,000? Did you enjoy the link to over 3000 Mopar owners that had over 200,000 miles and never even mentioned amsoil or any other synthetics contributing to the longevity of their vehicles? I think it's testimony to fact that good routine care is more important than what kind of oil you use even if you are the rare person that keeps their vehicle for over 200,000 miles. I don't think you have shown that amsoil would have gotten these vehicle to the same point with any less maintenance.

Btw, have you entered yours yet?

Shatto

06-19-2006, 04:24 AM

Please describe what you mean when you say pyramid.

SmokinCummins

06-19-2006, 04:26 AM

While 500k is impressive, it is not the first time I have seen it. It is however, the first 500k I have heard of running Amsoil. I am sure the Amsoil testimonials are full of them, but I do not pay attention to Amsoil testimonials because there is a ton of :spam: there. It is hard to tell the differance between truth and lies. For this same reason I don't pay much attention to any advertising that Amsoil does. Hard to tell truth from lies. Just saving money by switching to Amsoil - bogus. It is much more expensive running Amsoil than regular oil. If you do the 25k change and stop there, yes it is cheaper, but to switch everything and follow the actual guidelines it is much higher. Another issue I have is the pyrimid scheme. I know technically they are not a pyrimid scheme, BUT it is set up as a pyrimid.

SmokinCummins

06-19-2006, 04:35 AM

Please describe what you mean when you say pyramid.

By pyrimid, I mean they set up anyone and everyone who is willing to push the stuff. Doing it this way makes people feel they are getting a killer deal and if they can sell it to their friends, they will have a side job for extra cash. Another benefit to this is everyone will tell how great it is, because everyone is a dealer. Part of selling stuff is that you have to really brag it up - often more than it deserves.

Amsoil Dealer

06-19-2006, 11:57 AM

__________________

Please do not confuse Pyramid Schemes with Multi-Level Marketing (MLM). A Pyramid Scheme is a non-sustainable business model that involves the exchange of money primarily for enrolling other people into the scheme, usually without any product or service being delivered. Multi-Level Marketing (MLM) is regarded as a legitimate business method.

The concept of MLM does not have a bad name and is taught as a valid business model at the top Business Schools as part of their MBA Programs. AMSOIL is a well respected MLM company and has NO complaints with the Better Business Bureau, and no complaints by the FTC ... after 30+ years in existence. You will be hard pressed to find another oil compnay with as clean a record. Amsoil has never been accused of false advertising, found guilty of false advertising, fined for false advertising, etc. Every major motor oil company (usually hiding behind and offering such products as Prolong, STP, zMax, Slick 50, or MMO) has been either accused, found guilty, fined, or censured by the FTC. So has everyone's favorite ... EXXON/Mobil.
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In the beginning, Amsoil, being a small speciality oil manufacturer, could never compete with the big guys for shelf space. Shelf space at the big stores is not free --- you have to pay for every inch of shelf frontage that you use. (I used to work in Management for an Import Company so I know this to be fact). So, ... Amsoil started as a Multi-Level Marketing company, also know as MLM. Once Amsoil decided upon this concept they could not change or 100's of Independent Dealers would loose their business.
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As for Multi-Level Marketing companies (MLM's) ... there isn't anything wrong with this as most companies are a network of people that take the money from the bottom people who do the work and rolls it back up to the top, each level is getting their portion and usually the guy on top makes the most. This is common in any and every company. If most companies would follow such a program (performance based) you'd be surprised as to how many would really put an effort into really working instead of expecting that paycheck just for showing up.

That's the neat thing about MLM's, as it can offer the ones that work ... an unlimited amount of income based on their performance. Not everyone should be in a program such as this because many cannot focus on selling and are better suited as a production person (clock-in clock-out) and IMHO ... they DO deserve their share because if not for them there would be no product to sell. So, is MLM bad?, I don't think so. Every company is an MLM of sorts.

FOR THE RECORD, Amsoil was started over 30 years ago as an MLM because they did not have the "shelf space" or advertising budgets to compete with the "big guys". I'm certain that if they were starting the company today ... what with easier access to capital (Venture Capital and the Stock Market) they might do it differently. However, they can't change their stripes now ... hundreds of Amsoil Independent Representatives would loose their sole income or their second income ... and who says Amsoil wants to? I think Amsoil is quite happy with 5% of the market that appreciates a superior product.

N56629

06-19-2006, 12:58 PM

A Pyramid Scheme is a non-sustainable business model that involves the exchange of money primarily for enrolling other people into the scheme, usually without any product or service being delivered. Multi-Level Marketing (MLM) is regarded as a legitimate business method.

Being a legitimate business model and a good business model are two very different things. Being legitimate doesn't make it any less of a pyramid. There is no limit to the size of this pyramid since anyone can become a dealer. So-called dealers like Shatto corrupt the business model. There will always be those at the bottom of the pyramid that make little or no money at all and there will always be a bottom of the amsoil pyramid. In theory everyone in the world can become an amsoil dealer. This is the only business model where that can happen, even if only in theory.

The concept of MLM does not have a bad name and is taught as a valid business model at the top Business Schools as part of their MBA Programs.

If you are a political science major you will be taught that communism is a valid form of government but that doesn't mean that it is a good example to follow.

Amsoil Dealer

06-19-2006, 02:57 PM

__________________

YES ... Amsoil is a MLM Company (and proud of it). But I will be the first to admit that there are a bunch of yo-yo Amsoil Dealers that just slam the competition without even knowing their own product lines. I work my Amsoil Business with my brother, Duane Roark, who is a Certified Gasoline and Diesel Mechanic and I am a University Graduate. As I team I believe we handle our business affairs in a VERY PROFESSIONAL manner. - Thank You, Steven Roark (and Duane)

The concept of Multi-Level Marketing (MLM) does not have a bad name and is taught as a valid business model at the top Business Schools as part of their MBA Programs. As for Multi-Level Marketing companies (MLM's) ... there isn't anything wrong with this as most companies are a network of people that take the money from the bottom people who do the work and rolls it back up to the top, each level is getting their portion and usually the guy on top makes the most. This is common in any and every company. If most companies would follow such a program (performance based) you'd be surprised as to how many would put an effort into REALLY working instead of expecting that paycheck just for showing up.
The Multi-Level Marketing Business Model (MLM), when done professionally, is a GOOD and LEGITIMATE business method.

SmokinCummins

06-19-2006, 03:11 PM

That is why I said technically it is not a pyrimid scheme. It may not fall under the definition of pyrimid scheme, but it is still set in a pyrimid and anyone can join.

In the business world, a testimonial is not worth much when it comes from a dealer. I am not trying to single anyone out here, so please do not think this aimed at anyone.

I will give an example:
A friend of mine traded in a lemon at the local Ford dealer. They assured him he would have much better luck with his 05 F250 because they have an awesome new engine that is setting the diesel world on end. He bought it hook line and sinker not knowing the 6.0 powerstroke is about the biggest mistake that Ford has ever made.

It is the same everywhere you go, no one selling a product is going to berate the product.

Amsoil Dealer

06-19-2006, 03:29 PM

__________________

Almost every company is a "pyramid", but that does not mean that every pyramid structure is a "scheme". Most companies are a network of people that take the money from the bottom people who do the work and rolls it back up to the top, each level is getting their portion and usually the guy on top makes the most --- a PYRAMID corporate structure. This is common in almost every company.

I believe your complaint is with the "yo-yo" dealers, and / or representatives, and not the business model. As I stated, I will be the first to admit that there are a bunch of yo-yo Amsoil Dealers that just slam the competition (and over promote their own products) without even knowing their own product lines. This is unfortunate but it happens in all industries and all businesses. I've worked with some of the Fortune 100 Companies and know it to be true, plus look at your friends experience at his local Ford dealership.

SmokinCummins

06-19-2006, 03:37 PM

__________________

I believe your complaint is with the "yo-yo" dealers, and / or representatives, and not the business model.
.

That is correct, but also add in Amsoil Corporation. Amsoil as a corporation leads an example of spam that alot of dealers follow very well.

N56629

06-19-2006, 04:45 PM

Almost every company is a "pyramid", but that does not mean that every pyramid structure is a "scheme". Most companies are a network of people that take the money from the bottom people who do the work and rolls it back up to the top, each level is getting their portion and usually the guy on top makes the most --- a PYRAMID corporate structure. This is common in almost every company.

Call Mobil and tell them that you want to be a dealer working out of your home. Ask them what kind of a discount you can get. Go AutoZone and ask them if they will sponser you so that you can be another local competitor.

To be sure, every business has a basic pyramid structure but for the most part they all know where the bottom of that pyramid is. When the bottom of the pyramid is infinately large it is little more than a legal scam to suggest everyone can make money. Like I said before, everyone can become an amsoil dealer whether they are yo-yo's or not. In the long term it makes for a very poor business model for everyone except those at the top.

Shatto

06-19-2006, 06:11 PM

Gentlemen,
You are discussing a business concept settled by the United States Supreme Court many years ago. The Amsoil business model is legal, honest, ethical and non fattening. Just kidding about the last thing.

When you go to your favorite supplier of whatever you buy for your beloved Dodge, you have entered the Business Model of our economy and country.
Here is what it looks like:

Manufacturer (they make products)
Jobber (they buy in huge lots, trainloads, shiploads)
Wholesaler (gets product from Jobber and transfers it to..)
Retailer (puts stuff on shelves, advertises to get your attention)
YOU (sashay in and find what you want, buy it)

Of the Dollar you spend, this is where it goes:

System A
Manufacturer...................35%
Jobber............................15%
Wholesaler.......................15%
Retailer...........................35%
You Pay.........................100%

Here is what happens to the same Dollar if you buy from Steve:

System B (for Better!)
Manufacturer, AMSOIL..........................35%
Jobber, (could be Steve).......................15%
Wholesaler, (could be Steve)..................15%
Retailer, (Steve, with or without a store)..35%
YOU PAY the same $1.00 at retail............100%

As you sit at your computer continuing a very intellectual conversation, indeed, Steve Roark can be making a great deal of money. A much higher rate of return than the Brick and Morter stores.

Pyramid?
If Steve sponsored you, and you said to yourself; "Self, I'm going to prove this doesn't work by doing everything the company and Steve tell me to do." You'll discover you can make those same percentages yourself and zoom right past Steve. Can't do that in a Pyramid.
Similarly, if you sponsor a slew of people, thinking you can sit back and clip coupons, wrong! You have to conduct a certain amount of business yourself to qualify for the bonuses and percentage. That isn't like a Pyramid either.

SPAM:
You, have all your life, held as a better source of information is the direct referral. You've leaned over a fender, with or without beer, and discussed what works best. Here we do the same thing, with or without beer, leaning over a keyboard.
Is 2/3rds of a magazine being advertising, SPAM? Is 20 minutes of a radio or TV hour devoted to advertising SPAM? Is most of your mail, okay, that is. But wait! It is advertising. Point is, if you aren't interested, you ignore it.
And now they are seriously looking into "Blinks" one second TV and radio ads.
Advertising is education on the benefits of a product, so a consumer might buy it. Isn't that exactly what the discussion of Amsoil is?

Suggestion;
Study the above. Done properly, Multi Level Marketing, also known as Network Marketing, is another economic model. Used the way it is intended frees you from the natural restrictions of System A.
You might remember, all your life you have been part of System A. You have always shopped there, and you work there. The question is; how well has that system treated you?

DirtyR/T

06-19-2006, 06:43 PM

The shit has hit the fan!

N56629

06-19-2006, 07:25 PM

You might remember, all your life you have been part of System A. You have always shopped there, and you work there. The question is; how well has that system treated you?

How has the American free enterpise system treated me?

Gee, I thought it was pretty good up until now. Let me think about it.

2 seconds later:

Ok, I'm done thinking about it.

Just one question. If Steve sponser me, what does he get out of it?

Ok, one more. Didn't you forget the shipping company in between the retailer and you or is everything shipped free?

Amsoil Dealer

06-19-2006, 09:44 PM

__________________

N56629, The Amsoil percentage payouts are actually lower than represented by Shatto and a greater percentage goes to Amsoil Corporate, but his point is well taken. I don't get to triple-dip as an Amsoil Jobber/Dealer(wholesaler)/Retailer.

Just one question. If Steve sponser(d) me, what does he get out of it?
If I sponsor you, and let's not forget that I am offering *** FREE (with purchase) AMSOIL Preferred Customer Memberships (like joining a Costco), and AMSOIL PREFERRED CUSTOMERS buy at WHOLESALE PRICES (DEALER COST -- the SAME price I pay as an Amsoil Dealer).

For SITE MEMBERS, if you purchase $50 of Amsoil Products I will purchase for you a 6-month AMSOIL Preferred Customer Trial Membership ( $10 6-month trial and $20 year - again, like joining a Costco ). If you purchase $100 of Amsoil Products I will purchase you a 12-month AMSOIL Preferred Customer Membership. Here is the LINK (http://www.dakota-durango.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14246) .

If you only purchase Amsoil from me one (1) time, I might actually loose money on the transaction. My bet (my hope) is that you will continue to use Amsoil products. That ... and I enjoy being a www.Dakota-Durango.com Vendor / Site Sponsor / Advertiser ... and anything I can do to help SinCityRT and his website helps both of us.

N56629

06-20-2006, 04:12 AM

If you only purchase Amsoil from me one (1) time, I might actually loose money on the transaction. My bet (my hope) is that you will continue to use Amsoil products.

So a more direct answer would be that you make a little bit of money off each dealer that you sponser? If so, do you also make something off of each dealer sponsored by the dealer that you sponsored? Or, is that what you meant by not being able to "triple dip?"

Amsoil Dealer

06-20-2006, 05:02 AM

__________________

N56629, I am confused and don't know how to respond.

First you quote me as follows:

If you only purchase Amsoil from me one (1) time, I might actually loose money on the transaction. My bet (my hope) is that you will continue to use Amsoil products.
... and then you went on to ask about my not being able to "triple dip",

So a more direct answer would be that you make a little bit of money off each dealer that you sponser? If so, do you also make something off of each dealer sponsored by the dealer that you sponsored? Or, is that what you meant by not being able to "triple dip?"
... and neither of the two comments have a relationship to each other.
__________________

I think I know what you were getting at so I respond as follows:

First ... Amsoil's Compensation Package is not a straight line and a Dealer is only paid once on each transaction, per se, therefore no "triple-dip" (i.e. Amsoil Dealers don't get the mark-up from Manufacturer Cost to Retail Price). The real compensation difference is that there are three (3) purchase prices: "Retail" Catalog Customers pay the highest (or retail) prices; Amsoil Preferred Customers who buy at approx 20% discount (a lower "wholesale" price); and "Retail-On-The-Shelf" (or your local store) who pays a different price as well so that they can mark it up to the retail price. The "percentage" commission is the same but on different purchase prices. Therefore I make slightly more on a retail catalog sale (full retail) than I do on a sale to another dealer, preferred customer, or to a retail store (which are all at the discounted wholesale price).

"... you make a little bit of money off each dealer that you sponser ... do you also make something off of each dealer sponsored by the dealer that you sponsored?"
To answer your question - YES! ... but the bulk of the compensation is paid to the person that made the "direct" sale.

It's called "Building an Organization". :biggthump and almost every company does this unless they sell direct to the public.

BUT ... I know the point you are going to try to make next ... and you are wrong. You are going to state that the business model is "all about signing up other dealers". WRONG! Check out my Amsoil Vendor Forum. I try to educate and assist vehicle owners. I offer product information and DIY Tips and Helpful Information.

I even offer FREE Amsoil Preferred Memberships so EVERYONE can buy AMSOIL at WHOLESALE Prices ...

... and all I "ask" is that vehicle owners please "consider" Amsoil.

N56629

06-20-2006, 12:54 PM

To answer your question - YES! ... but the bulk of the compensation is paid to the person that made the "direct" sale.

It's called "Building an Organization". and almost every company does this unless they sell direct to the public.

BUT ... I know the point you are going to try to make next ... and you are wrong. You are going to state that the business model is "all about signing up other dealers". WRONG! Check out my Amsoil Vendor Forum. I try to educate and assist vehicle owners. I offer product information and DIY Tips and Helpful Information.

I'm NOT wrong. You have clearly defined amsoil as a pyramid and not at all like "almost every company." Whether a company sells direct or not they do not have an infinate number of dealers. You also can't deny that there are so-called amsoil dealers out there that do little more than sign up other dealers so that they take a small profit from each one.

Unlike Amsoil most companies are very concerned about how distributors and dealers do business. The selling of dealerships to anyone that wants one is not ethical or condoned by the majority of businesses. The idea of a half dozen people selling McDonald hamburgers out of their homes certainly isn't appealing. If every company did business like amsoil every car on the street would be a rolling billboard.

Shatto

06-22-2006, 07:10 AM

Lets look at a Pyramid;

At the top is the Big Cheese.
Next, a layer of Vice President Cheeses.
Then you find middle management cheese.
Maybe bunches of line boss cheese, department head cheese.
Way down at the bottom are scads and scads of worker-drone cheese crumbs.

Hmmm. Looks like YOU work in a Pyramid!

Does the fact that the Supreme Court of the United States approved, as legal and legitimate, the way Amsoil does busines mean anything to you?

I gave you an outline of a 90 minute seminar on how Multi Level Marketing compares to the rest of the marketplace and it was as if I never wrote it.

Is this an exercise in argueing to you?

The Amsoil Marketing Plan is on their website. If you were near, Steve would show the plan, over coffee at Denny's. There are no secrets as to who gets what, how and when.
Yet I see you fussing over something you are obviously ignorant of because you are arguing cliche's you heard from other people who don't know what they were talking about. I know because I've heard the same nonsense for twenty years.

N56629

06-22-2006, 12:53 PM

Hmmm. Looks like YOU work in a Pyramid!

The pyramid I work in has a finite base, not an infinate base like amsoil. I know that is a difficult concept for an amsoil groupie to understand but it's a fact.

Does the fact that the Supreme Court of the United States approved, as legal and legitimate, the way Amsoil does busines mean anything to you?

The Supreme Court has also ruled that it is legal to be a communist and gay. What does that mean to you? Do such rulings mean that they are all the right way to do things?

Yet I see you fussing over something you are obviously ignorant of because you are arguing cliche's you heard from other people who don't know what they were talking about. I know because I've heard the same nonsense for twenty years.

I don't go around supporting other people's opinion but you certainly do support amsoil's position. Reread my comments and answer the pertinent questions and quit being evasive.

SmokinCummins

06-22-2006, 02:45 PM

If the whole world is set up like Amsoil why can't I buy a new Dodge at dealer cost? Why can't I go to Sams club and pay a special fee to sell things at dealer (Sams Club) cost? And Why can't I pay a small fee and get my medication at the same price the pharmacy pays?

Sorry, but Amsoils way of business is not like the majority of the world.

N56629

06-22-2006, 04:49 PM

Sorry, but Amsoils way of business is not like the majority of the world.

His entire point seems to be that the Supreme Court says it's legal. I guess he also thinks that they therefore have endorsed amsoil.

Shatto

06-22-2006, 05:01 PM

Amsoil Dealer

06-22-2006, 05:40 PM

S.D.
You are right; Multi Level Marketing is not like the rest of the business world.
Fact is, Steves Amsoil business is just as much a business as any business, because the IRS and government regulatory agencies treat it like a business.

It's okay Shatto. I think (hope) I represented the facts very well in an earlier post. Here is another example -- My family pays for Health Insurance and as part of the program we get to buy all our prescription medicines for a $20 flat fee. One of my family members was recently sick and his 30-day prescription supply carried a retail price of $300 ... and because he was part of a "Membership Program" ... he only had to pay $20. Not a "like-for-like" comparison, but similar in a way.

I don't have to defend Amsoil, who has been in business for over 30 years with no BBB or FTC complaints, fines, etc. I enjoy working with Amsoil. It gives me something to talk about when I hang out with the guys at the garages and the tracks. PLUS ... it's really nice getting those commission checks once a month. ALSO ... my Amsoil Customers are "customers for life" and I can actually pass the business on to my children (if I ever have any) as part of their inheritance.

Yes, "Multi Level Marketing is not like the rest of the business world". Thank Goodness!

N56629

06-22-2006, 06:39 PM

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v311/N56629/Parts%20and%20Stuff/amsoilvs.jpg

N56629

06-22-2006, 06:43 PM

Can anyone imagine a world where MLM is the norm? Imagine having to purchace every item you want thru different individuals. It would be a world of chaos.

Amsoil Dealer

06-22-2006, 08:24 PM

_______ http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v311/N56629/Parts%20and%20Stuff/amsoilvs.jpg _______
*************** LOVE THE PHOTOSHOP WORK ***************

:banana2: :mullet: :bow: :drool: :beer: :jester: :woot: :rockwoot:
.................................................. ........................................... :yourock:

N56629

06-22-2006, 09:30 PM

Glad you recognized it as humor, but seriously, what do you think things would be like if every product was sold in the same way as Amsoil?

SmokinCummins

06-23-2006, 02:26 AM

S.D.

Sir, you must compare like to like.

Buy at factory cost?
Ever hear of "Loss Leader?" Sorry, that's below cost. Never mind.
Any Dodge Dealer can buy themself a Dodge at factory cost.

I'll ignore the hanging fast ball, and just point out that, if you owned a pharmacy, you could get your medicine cheaper.

Buy a Hardware store. Get tools at cost.

Buy a Department store. Get your duds at cost.

Own a jewelry store. You'll be shocked at the mark-up!

You are right; Multi Level Marketing is not like the rest of the business world.

Fact is, Steves Amsoil business is just as much a business as any business, because the IRS and government regulatory agencies treat it like a business.

Because you and N56629 say it isn't, doesn't make it so. What you chaps continue to point out is that it is not the same as what you are used to.

BIG, BIG differance. Want to be a normal retail business, better be able to prove you have the store to sell it. Want to be a retailer for amsoil, you just have to be willing to. Any Joe Schmoe can sell Amsoil, you don't even have to have a tax id number. Try to be a Wal Mart, pharmacy, Dodge dealer, hardware store, department store with out the store and you will be politely told to get lost.

Amsoil Dealer

06-24-2006, 01:52 AM

Glad you recognized it as humor, but seriously, what do you think things would be like if every product was sold in the same way as Amsoil?
Before I begin let me state that AMSOIL is not affiliated with AMWAY ... in much the same way AMTRAK is not affiliated with AMWAY.

Unfortunately, rather than talking about Amsoil's superior synthetic products, filters, extended oil change intervals, saving natural resources and reducing our dependence on foreign oil, I am asked to defend Amsoil's business model.

So here goes. There are many businesses that are set up similar to AMSOIL ... they just go by different names such as "Multi-Level Marketing", "Affiliate Programs", "Business Partners", "Network Marketing", "Home-based Business Franchising", etc., which offer cash compensation for the sales teams efforts in marketing, promoting and selling a given product ... as well as bringing others into the organization.

As with any organization, there are good ones and bad ones.

Fraudulent MLM or Network Marketing Schemes

Fraudulent MLM or Network Marketing schemes can usually be identified by high entrance fees or requirements to purchase expensive inventories. AMSOIL HAS NEITHER OF THESE REQUIREMENTS ... NO entrance fee and NO inventory requirements. Also, NO minimum quota's, NO territory restrictions, and NO requirements to sign up other dealers.

What the parent company (Amsoil included) offers is Product, Sales Support, Website Promotion, Catalogs, Event Support and Collaboration, Joint Press Releases, Marketing, Advertising, Lead Referrals, Volume Discounts, Incentives ... and an Amsoil Preferred Customer Membership Program. Today, most MLM companies act as logistics companies that take orders, ship products and calculate and pay commissions.

Amsoil operates as a MLM "Affiliate" Program. Amsoil Dealers do not handle the product (it's shipped direct from one of over a dozen distribution centers) and the money goes directly to the parent company, who pays the "affiliate" (or independent contractor) a commission ... with the added aspect of Network Marketing.

The power and distribution of the internet have almost made the stocking of products (store shelves) obsolete. My customers are just a click away from ordering directly online, or a phone call away from ordering via a retail or preferred customer (wholesale) catalog.

One of the keys to becoming successful is to provide SUPERIOR products that the average person will use. The products should be unique or consumable.

Another key to success is finding the right sponsor; leader or team to work with to help insure a successful business venture. A sponsor is someone who will guide and assist you with the necessary support and resources to help you grow your business. I am that "right sponsor".
__________________

In a typical Multi-Level Marketing or Network Marketing arrangement, individuals associate with a parent company as an independent contractor and are compensated based on their sales of products or service, as well as the sales achieved by those they bring into the business.

Estimated U.S. direct selling volume nearly doubled from 1995 to 2005 and Multi-Level Marketing is clearly one of the least expensive ways to start a small business in the U.S.

In a legitimate MLM company (such as Amsoil), commissions are earned only on sales of the company's products. No money may be earned from recruiting alone ("sign-up fees"). Some, less legitimate companies, produce revenues primarily by attracting new participants or selling them marketing services, as opposed to selling actual products. NOT AMSOIL !!!

LEGITIMATE MLM's vs. ILLEGAL SCAMS such as PYRAMID or PONZI SCHEMES

I understand why you make your comments ... Multi-Level Marketing has a recognized image problem due to the fact that it is often difficult to distinguish legitimate MLMs from illegal scams such as pyramid or Ponzi schemes. MLM businesses do operate legitimately in all 50 U.S. states and more than 100 other countries.

BEWARE OF FRAUDULENT MLM SCHEMES

These can usually be identified by high entrance fees or requirements to purchase expensive inventories. They often collapse when the merchandise cannot be resold, leaving all but those at the top of the pyramid with financial losses. This is NOT Amsoil's business model and we have been in business for over 30 years.

Amway in particular is a frequent target for critics for generating considerable revenues from selling instructional and motivational materials to its participants. This is NOT the Amsoil business model. Amsoil does NOT require its dealers to buy instructional materials and does not even offer motivational materials.

N56629

06-25-2006, 04:35 AM

In a legitimate MLM company (such as Amsoil), commissions are earned only on sales of the company's products. No money may be earned from recruiting alone ("sign-up fees"). Some, less legitimate companies, produce revenues primarily by attracting new participants or selling them marketing services, as opposed to selling actual products. NOT AMSOIL !!!

I really do understand the fine details that distinguish amsoil from illegal pyramids or MLM companies. However, the general principles are the same. Many people still tend to focus on signing up other dealers rather marketing the product. While it's not illegal it is still a pyramid without a finite base.

There is no need to defend it, it is what it is. Now, is this an accurate discription(s)?

Dealer
A dealer sells products to customers. There are no limitations on being a dealer, no requirements, quotas or minimums. Currently the cost is $30/year (USD) with no other startup costs. A dealer, as with all of the following accounts, must be sponsored by another Dealer.

Preferred customers
A Preferred Customer (PC) is someone who wants to purchase Amsoil products at Dealer price, but is not interested in building a business, nor making a profit on reselling Amsoil products or sponsoring other accounts. The cost of being a Preferred Customer is $20/year (USD) however there is a one-time 6-month trial membership option for $10/year. This progam is comparable to being a member of Sam's Club or Costco. About 20% is shaved off of the MSRP price of Amsoil product for Dealers and Preferred Customers. Therefore the break-even point to holding a PC account is roughly $20/year.

Amsoil Dealer

06-25-2006, 03:54 PM

I really do understand the fine details that distinguish amsoil from illegal pyramids or MLM companies. However, the general principles are the same. Many people still tend to focus on signing up other dealers rather marketing the product. While it's not illegal it is still a pyramid without a finite base. There is no need to defend it, it is what it is. Now, is this an accurate discription(s)?

Dealer. A dealer sells products to customers. There are no limitations on being a dealer, no requirements, quotas or minimums. Currently the cost is $30/year (USD) with no other startup costs. A dealer, as with all of the following accounts, must be sponsored by another Dealer.

Preferred customers. A Preferred Customer (PC) is someone who wants to purchase Amsoil products at Dealer price, but is not interested in building a business, nor making a profit on reselling Amsoil products or sponsoring other accounts. The cost of being a Preferred Customer is $20/year (USD) however there is a one-time 6-month trial membership option for $10/year. This progam is comparable to being a member of Sam's Club or Costco. About 20% is shaved off of the MSRP price of Amsoil product for Dealers and Preferred Customers. Therefore the break-even point to holding a PC account is roughly $20/year.
N56629,

You use generalities such as "many people" do this or "many people" do that. Well ... okay, ... some employees at the local coffee shop franchise might ... PEE IN YOUR COFFEE. That does not make the whole franchise a bad organization.
__________________

SIGNING UP DEALERS rather than MARKETING THE PRODUCT

To eliminate the act of, (your quote) "Many people still tend to focus on signing up other dealers rather marketing the product". Well ... Amsoil realizes that you have to use and sell Amsoil products to appreciate their superiority and faithfully market the products, so their commission schedules are set up to discourage those types of activities. Plus ... as in any organization, the qualified "good dealers" will rise to the top and the "bad" dealers will fall out of the organization. That is also why I stated earlier that one key to a successful Amsoil Dealership is finding the right sponsor, leader or team to work with to help insure a successful business venture. A sponsor is someone who will guide and assist with the necessary support and resources to help grow a business. Again, I am that "right sponsor".
__________________

LEGITIMATE MLM's vs. ILLEGAL SCAMS such as PYRAMID or PONZI SCHEMES

I think I did an excellent job in differentiating between LEGITIMATE MLM's and ILLEGAL SCAMS such as PYRAMID or PONZI SCHEMES. Amsoil is a LEGITIMATE MLM with absolutely zero BBB complaints or FTC complaints and we have been in business for 34 years. I dare you to find another oil company that can say the same thing.

To become an Amsoil Dealer: (correction)

Your comment, "Currently the cost is $30/year (USD) with no other startup costs". Not exactly ... the point you missed is that it is actually only $10/year to become an Amsoil Dealer ($20/year Amsoil Preferred Customer Membership + an additional $10/year to upgrade to an Amsoil Dealer).

For the low cost of only $10/year, an Amsoil Preferred Customer can upgrade to an Amsoil Dealer, and build a successful "Home Based Business" recouping many, many times his yearly investment of $10. *** NO Quotas, NO Inventory Purchase Requirements, NO Territory Retrictions, NO requirement to purchase instructional or motivational materials (which we as a legitimate MLM don't even sell). NOTHING ... NADA ... ZIPPO ... ZERO.

Information about Amsoil Preferred Customers.

SPECIAL NOTE: An Amsoil Preferred Customer can upgrade to a Dealer for the LOW LOW cost of only $10 at any time.

Your comment, "A Preferred Customer (PC) is someone who wants to purchase Amsoil products at Dealer price (slight correction - Amsoil Preferred Customers purchase at WHOLESALE PRICE which happens to be the same as the Dealer Price), but is not interested in building a business, nor making a profit on reselling Amsoil products or sponsoring other accounts. The cost of being a Preferred Customer is $20/year (USD) however there is a one-time 6-month trial membership option for $10/year. This progam is comparable to being a member of Sam's Club or Costco. About 20% is shaved off of the MSRP price of Amsoil product for Dealers and Preferred Customers. Therefore the break-even point to holding a PC account is roughly $20/year." (The BREAKEVEN POINT is roughly $100 per year spent on Amsoil products. $100 spent equals $20 saved which equals the $20 yearly fee).

What I did before I became an Amsoil Dealer (I started out as a Amsoil Preferred Customer) was to combine my order with family, friends and neighbors. Combined we spent about $2,000 per year.

We knew we were buying some of the best synthetic and filtration products for our vehicles, lawn equipment, farm implements and toys ... and we were saving cash as well ... by combining orders, buying at wholesale prices, and saving on combined shipping costs.

N56629

06-25-2006, 04:29 PM

You use generalities such as "many people" do this or "many people" do that. Well ... okay, ... some employees at the local coffee shop franchise might ... PEE IN YOUR COFFEE. That does not make the whole franchise a bad organization.

I use generalities and you use absurd analogies. I was trying to make a point which you can't deny yet your analogies remain absurd.

If selling PC and Dealer memberships were not profitable then there would be no incentive to do so. As in ANY business it would be incredibly stupid to cut your own throat by encouraging competition to sales in your own territory. Name another franchise that encourages someone to start up the same or similar business next door. On the other hand it might not be a bad idea, that is if you got a commision for everyone that you sucked into doing it, knowing full well that by increasing the number of dealers in your area would minimize the sales for each dealer.

For example, if I signed up one thousand dealers in my town, would I or would I not get a small commision from each sale they made? A simple yes or no would be sufficient. Would I or would I not make as much or more money than each of those dealers that are busting their butts to sell product? Again, a simple yes or no will do.

If you want to evade the questions with more absurd analogies I will understand.

Amsoil Dealer

06-25-2006, 05:25 PM

I use generalities and you use absurd analogies. I was trying to make a point which you can't deny yet your analogies remain absurd.

If selling PC and Dealer memberships were not profitable then there would be no incentive to do so.

Did someone PEE IN YOUR COFFEE this morning? :nana:

Fraudulent MLM or Network Marketing schemes can usually be identified by high entrance fees. AMSOIL does not pay me one red cent (not one penny) for signing up Preferred Customers or Amsoil Dealers. I only get paid if they purchase Amsoil Products.

"... it would be incredibly stupid to cut your own throat by encouraging competition to sales in your own territory."
Wrong for two reasons. True ... AMSOIL HAS NO TERRITORY RESTRICTIONS. I can sell in all fifty (50) States, Canada, and Puerto Rico. What does that make my target market? Maybe 300 million individuals (only counting those of legal driving age) that own vehicles, boats, toys, etc., and every day hundreds of NEW potential customers get their drivers license. In addition ... many of our products are for the commercial industry (factories, manufacturing, distribution) which is another different client base altogether.

"... increasing the number of dealers in your area would minimize the sales for each dealer."
Amsoil controls only 5% of the synthetic market. More Dealers would mean that perhaps we could increase market share and commissions for everyone. PLUS, as with any "sales" organization, the strong survive and the weak move onto another career. PLUS, many do this part time (such as myself).

Did I miss anything? It's time to leave and go to the local restaurant for brunch. The local establishment is owned by a local family (one of many of hundreds of independent restaurants - the equivalent of hundreds of independent dealers - that compete rather nicely together).

I think I'm safe ... it's family owned ... and maybe my coffee will be ... PEE FREE! :nana:

N56629

06-25-2006, 06:16 PM

Wrong for two reasons. True ... AMSOIL HAS NO TERRITORY RESTRICTIONS. I can sell in all fifty (50) States, Canada, and Puerto Rico. What does that make my target market? Maybe 300 million individuals (only counting those of legal driving age) that own vehicles, boats, toys, etc., and every day hundreds of NEW potential customers get their drivers license.

True, but each and everyone of those 300 million people are potential dealers. That is the inherent problem with pyramids.

Did I miss anything?

Yes, you failed to give a direct answer to these questions.

For example, if I signed up one thousand dealers in my town, would I or would I not get a small commision from each sale they made? A simple yes or no would be sufficient. Would I or would I not make as much or more money than each of those dealers that are busting their butts to sell product? Again, a simple yes or no will do.

Amsoil Dealer

06-25-2006, 08:06 PM

True, but each and everyone of those 300 million people are potential dealers. That is the inherent problem with pyramids.
Please stop calling us a Pyramid.

A Pyramid Scheme is an ILLEGAL SCAM.

Amsoil is a LEGITIMATE MLM Affiliate Network Marketing and Sales Company.

I provided clear language earlier which differentiated the two. (post 06-23-2006 07:52 PM)
__________________

Like I stated, Amsoil's commission tables are designed to discourge simply signing up dealers -- and commissions are ONLY paid out as a percentage of the products sale price and ONLY when products are sold. PERIOD. No money is earned by the sponsor for signing up a dealer. Zero, Zilch, Nada.

It has been my experience that the majority of customers do not care about the Amsoil Dealership Opportunity and only purchase Amsoil products at retail or wholesale (preferred customer) prices. Experience demonstrates that only a very small percentage of Amsoil customers will ever become dealers. This is work by the way - and not play - so I am not concerned in the least.

Yes, you failed to give a direct answer to these questions. For example, if I signed up one thousand dealers in my town, would I or would I not get a small commision from each sale they made? A simple yes or no would be sufficient. Would I or would I not make as much or more money than each of those dealers that are busting their butts to sell product? Again, a simple yes or no will do.
If you were an Amsoil Dealer, one (or more) of your sponsored network "Dealers" may actually make more money than you as their sponsor. WHY? Again, Amsoil is a Legitimate MLM. Commissions are higher for actually selling the product, and the "over rides" are less (as a percentage) for your organizations production.

An Amsoil Dealer can't just sit back and sign up dealers or their organization will fail. As Amsoil Dealers, we must continue to educate ourselves, our customers and our potential customers ... and sell product. The fortunate thing is that AMSOIL offers SUPERIOR products across the board ... so it is a company that is EASY to represent ... a LEGITIMATE MLM Affiliate Network Marketing and Sales Company.

FYI --- There was NO PEE in my coffee this morning. :biggthump

https://www.amsoil.com/dealer/websites/graphics/amsoilbar.jpg

N56629

06-26-2006, 02:10 AM

Please stop calling us a Pyramid.

A Pyramid Scheme is an ILLEGAL SCAM.

I use the word "pyramid" and you paraphrase it as "pyramid scheme." AFAIC a MLM with no finite base is in fact a pyramid. Actually the term pyramid is more discriptive of a typical business since we all know that they have do in fact have a definable base. However, for the sake of consistency I'll define any business without a base as being a pyramid. It is only a matter of whether or not it is a legal pyramid (MLM) or an illegal pyramid (scheme.) I've already recognized amsoil as a legal pyramid (MLM.)

If you were an Amsoil Dealer, one (or more) of your sponsored network "Dealers" may actually make more money than you as their sponsor. WHY? Again, Amsoil is a Legitimate MLM. Commissions are higher for actually selling the product, and the "over rides" are less (as a percentage) for your organizations production.

I'm going to take that as a round about way of saying, yes, I could do nothing but sell dealerships and PC's. I could get commisions without actually selling any product myself. While my commisions might be small, by sponsering thousands of dealers I could make a great deal of money even though I don't sell any product.

How many hits do you think I would get if typed "become an amsoil dealer" into any search engine? How many sites do you think would focus on selling dealerships? Are these the "few" bad apples you are talking about?

Let's face it, if consumers didn't have to support the vast amsoil pyramids this excellent product would be far more competitive.

I'm still wondering how you would like to buy all products the same why you have to buy amsoil.

SmokinCummins

06-26-2006, 05:01 AM

I actually like the oil, the oil is good oil for the price, but it is not what I use. There is better stuff out there, just boils down to personal preferance. Amsoil is so bad about misleading literature that I don't know what to believe is good, and what is sales pitch, so I base my choice on hard facts.

Amsoil Dealer

06-26-2006, 05:43 PM

How many hits do you think I would get if typed "become an amsoil dealer" into any search engine?
ANSWER = Not Important. In MLM, a dealer is in the business of selling themselves, the company and the products. It's the personal sales approach that counts. I can promise you that I know more about synthetic lubricants and filters than the guy behind the counter at the local automotive parts store.

I'm still wondering how you would like to buy all products the same why you have to buy amsoil.
ANSWER = I can't say that I would like to buy all products via a MLM company, but I would certainly consider buying most of my products from a reputable MLM company. WHY??? MLM's offer a personal sales approach and eliminates much of the exorbitant cost of traditional advertising and distribution. A MLM company can provide me with a superior product at a lower price.

__________________

AMSOIL Is a Leader in MLM Industry

Multi-Level Marketing (commonly referred to as "MLM") continues to broaden its reach around the world. In 2002 (the latest numbers that I have available), the direct sale of products totaled $28.7 billion in the United States alone, out of nearly $90 billion worldwide. Over 13 million people are involved in Multi-Level Marketing in the United States alone, more than in any other country.

MLM began as a means of distributing products directly to the consumer. MLM differs from some forms of direct sales in encouraging the dealers to sell the company’s product and to recruit other dealers, thereby increasing sales and generating commission on more than one level of distribution. Essentially, in MLM, a dealer is in the business of selling themselves, the company and the product(s). If they succeed, not only will people buy the product, but these customers may become dealers themselves, earning the sponsoring dealer commissions on their sales.

MLM’s personal sales approach eliminates much of the exorbitant cost of traditional advertising and distribution, which can account for more than 50 percent of a product’s price when sold at retail. In a MLM company, the lower distribution costs allow for reasonably priced products, more profit for dealers and revenue to reinvest in the company.

Over the past 10 years, the Internet has proven an extremely useful tool for MLM businesses. Via recruiting and advertising, including personal websites, blogs and Amsoil Forums like this on www.Dakota-Durango.com, the web has offered greater opportunities for MLM companies and the individual distributor. The web has the potential to reach customers in every country and every market we offer Amsoil products. The Internet has created numerous MLM success stories.

I understand that it is sometimes difficult to distinguish a genuine MLM opportunity from an illegitimate one. Fortunately, the profusion of scam artists has resulted in a wealth of information warning the public of the possibility of MLM fraud.

To address this, the Federal Trade Commission (the "FTC") has published a consumer alert in which they suggest a number of questions to ask oneself when assessing the legitimacy and long-term viability of a MLM company.

1) What is the company’s track record?

A poorly run or illegitimate company will not be in business for very long. A look at the history of AMSOIL reveals a solid track record and has established a strong presence in the synthetic lubricants market over the last 30 years, during which time it continued to enhance its product line. From two products in 1973 to well over 150 today, AMSOIL continues to be an innovator in the synthetic lubricants market.

2) What products does it sell?

AMSOIL’s continued growth demonstrates that not only is there a demand for its products, but that demand is on the rise. Moreover, AMSOIL has so much faith in its own products that Amsoil is unique among MLM companies in recommending that people use its products before deciding to become dealers. This way, the AMSOIL dealer is certain to sell products he or she believes in.

3) Does it sell products to the public-at-large?

AMSOIL is certain that it offers high quality products that can benefit consumers, and has always been focused on delivering these products to the public. With a vast and well-supported dealer network, online store, retail catalog and retail-on-the-shelf accounts that attract thousands of customers every month.

It is common for illegitimate MLM companies to derive nearly 90 percent of their profit in sales to their distributors. In these companies, much of the marketing effort is directed at finding new distributors who will buy large quantities of product to generate commission for their upline since the product is not easy to market to the end consumer.

4) Does it have the evidence to back up the claims it makes about its product?

AMSOIL’s longevity is testament to its sound product line. Both in-house and independent testing, as well as millions of satisfied customers, confirm the quality and performance of AMSOIL products.

5) Is the product competitively priced?

A strong, stable company like AMSOIL could not have been built on false claims and price gouging. The market would simply not allow it.

If a MLM company derives the bulk of its profits from sales to new distributors rather than the end customer, there is something amiss with the product or, more likely its cost. When a company, like AMSOIL, caters to the public with quality products that are priced right, sales grow along with the company. Higher quality products come at a higher cost, but savvy consumers would never pay that premium price unless they knew they were getting a premium product.

6) Is the product likely to appeal to a large customer base?

The most successful MLM companies market products that most everyone uses and AMSOIL certainly falls in this category. Millions of Americans already use lubricants and any sensible person would be interested in improved performance and fewer fuel and maintenance expenses. When it has a product that can serve these common desires, it is no wonder why AMSOIL continues to grow.

7) How much is the investment to join the plan?

Many MLM companies subsist on large initial investments by new distributors. Indeed, for many pyramid schemes this is the only source of revenue. A small initial fee, on the other hand, suggests that the company relies primarily on its marketable products for revenue rather than on new-dealer investments. AMSOIL continues to keep the initial investment at a minimum (only $10/year to be an Amsoil Dealer) to encourage easy access to all of the benefits of a dealership. (note: the $10/year is in addition to paying the $20/year preferred customer membership fee, but net it is still only $10/year).

8) Will you be required to recruit new distributors to earn your commission?

AMSOIL requires no such thing. You can use your dealership to purchase products wholesale only for yourself or you can actively pursue sales and earn commissions immediately.

If the answer to this question is yes, then be skeptical. This type of structure suggests little faith in the actual product. In these companies, rather than concentrating on selling products to the end consumer, you are trying to sell a convoluted system to potential distributors.
__________________

As MLM continues to mature and expand into new markets, AMSOIL stands apart as a remarkable example of how MLM can make good on its promise of continuous and reliable growth, by focusing on getting high quality products to the consumer.

AMSOIL also recognized early on that a well-supported Dealer Network is key to success in this business. If Amsoil provides its Dealer Network quality products and the tools to sell them, the Dealer will succeed.

AMSOIL takes pride in knowing that it represents Multi-Level Marketing (MLM) at its best.

https://www.amsoil.com/dealer/websites/graphics/amsoilbar.jpg

N56629

06-26-2006, 06:25 PM

ANSWER = Not Important. In MLM, a dealer is in the business of selling themselves, the company and the products. It's the personal sales approach that counts. I can promise you that I know more about synthetic lubricants and filters than the guy behind the counter at the local automotive parts store.

I think that it is important because if it is true that there are many out there, whose primary purpose is the establish a large dealer base, it gives people the impression that it is in fact a pyramid. To me that translate into a bad image.

I'm still wondering what a MLM (pyramid) with 300 million dealers would be like. I'm sure the people at the top of the pyramid would be incredibly happy.

ANSWER = I can't say that I would like to buy all products via a MLM company, but I would certainly consider buying most of my products from a reputable MLM company.

I don't think that you realize just how many different products you buy. I walk into an auto store and buy a half dozen different products at one time. Maybe with one exception, you, most would not want to contact a half dozen different people, pay shipping to half dozen different people, get billed by a half dozen different people and wait for a half dozen different packages to arrive at their door on a half dozen different days.

Going grocery shopping, MLM style, would be unimaginable.

SmokinCummins

06-26-2006, 07:49 PM

I think that it is important because if it is true that there are many out there, whose primary purpose is the establish a large dealer base, it gives people the impression that it is in fact a pyramid. To me that translate into a bad image.

That is axactly how my distributor is - more concerned about a bigger base under him than servicing what he has. Also, he acts like if it is not a Amsoil product then it is trash. I asked him to back up his claims. I told him that I did not want sales propaganda, I want cold hard facts. He sent me sales literature. :spam:

N56629

06-26-2006, 08:29 PM

That is axactly how my distributor is - more concerned about a bigger base under him than servicing what he has. Also, he acts like if it is not a Amsoil product then it is trash. I asked him to back up his claims. I told him that I did not want sales propaganda, I want cold hard facts. He sent me sales literature. :spam:

In all fairness to Steve, not all dealers are like that. Unfortunately that is the down side to any MLM (legal pyramid.) Steve says every type of business has a few bad apples but it seems that amsoil has more than its share of them. Like I said, type in "become an amsoil dealer" and you will get thousands of hits, perhaps tens of thousands. There is no limit to the number of people that can be conned into becoming dealers. The term "dealer" has virtually no meaning whatsoever, at least not in the most common sense of the word. When you enter the world of MLM words tend to lose their meanings.

Amsoil Dealer

06-27-2006, 12:59 PM

__________________

PHEW ... for a minute there I thought you two were ganging up on me and that I would find no redemption.

In all fairness to Steve, not all dealers are like that.
Certainly not me.

*** I am offering FREE Amsoil Preferred Customer Memberships (not Dealerships) and here is the LINK. (http://www.dakota-durango.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14246) Why? I am paying the Preferred Membership fee because I want everyone that is interested in Amsoil Products to have the opportunity to buy them (and try Amsoil) at the lowest possible prices (Wholesale / Dealer Cost).
__________________

*** THE PERSONAL SERVICE - I have suggested in many threads that if anyone has questions and would like to talk with someone directly (a really good guy and not Amsoil Corporate) ..... about ANYTHING AMSOIL .... that they should please call my brother, Duane Roark, who is also an Amsoil Dealer (10+ years) and a Certified Mechanic (Gasoline / Diesel / Navy Helicopter / Legends Race Cars / Etc.). Duane's AMSOIL phone number # 1-866-212-8040 (toll-free). If Duane is away from his desk, please leave your name, number, and best time to return your call.

Reminder ... Tell him I sent you ... or that you are from www.Dakota-Durango.com.

Steve says every type of business has a few bad apples but it seems that amsoil has more than its share of them. Like I said, type in "become an amsoil dealer" and you will get thousands of hits, perhaps tens of thousands. Based upon my GOOGLE results, the number is actually 19,200.

But that # does not mean 19,200 "Dealers". Google finds every mention of that phrase on every website, in forum posts and in blogs, etc. So the actual # of dealers suggesting that is much smaller.

Steve says every type of business has a few bad apples but it seems that amsoil has more than its share of them.Fortunately, the bad apples fall from the tree. I know this for a fact because I grew up on a working farm in South Georgia that had a couple of apple trees.

cloknem

06-27-2006, 01:51 PM

amsoil seems to be "thinner" than similarly weighted mobil 1, why?

SmokinCummins

06-27-2006, 02:00 PM

Nah, Steve. You are definately not the typical Amsoil dealer. :biggthump

N56629

06-27-2006, 05:00 PM

PHEW ... for a minute there I thought you two were ganging up on me and that I would find no redemption.

Nah, this is about the business model and not you or the product. Moreover, it was a bit more about Shatto, who ran away and left you to fend for yourself.

Fortunately, the bad apples fall from the tree. I know this for a fact because I grew up on a working farm in South Georgia that had a couple of apple trees.

Hey, I didn't call you or compare you to a fruit. :nana:

Amsoil Dealer

06-28-2006, 01:01 AM

In all fairness to Steve, not all dealers are like that. Nah, Steve. You are definately not the typical Amsoil dealer. :biggthump Hey, I didn't call you or compare you to a fruit. :nana:
Thank You Very Much Guys ... :beer: ... and have a HAPPY 4th of July !!! :usa2: :usa2: :usa2:

amsoil seems to be "thinner" than similarly weighted mobil 1, why?Are you asking about appearance when poured from the bottle, or at operating temperature? Appearance is not of key importance. Amsoil may appear thinner when poured from the bottle - and it may be slightly thinner depending upon which of our Amsoil motor oils you are inquiring about - but it is still the appropriate viscosity grade.

VISCOSITY GRADES

Engine oils are graded as "dual-grade" weights (i.e. 0w-30, 5w-30, 10w-30, etc.). Your engine needs a thin oil at startup (the first number as in 0w-, 5w- or 10w-) so that it can get to the engine components quickly, but it needs a thicker oil (the second number or 30w) when the engine is hot. Not to worry, a hot 30w flows better than a cold 10w. When you see 10w-30 on a quart of oil, it means that it has the characteristics of a 10w oil when it is cold (the "w" means winter), but has the characteristics of a 30w oil when hot (running temperature). Keep in mind that the second number of an oil's viscosity grade (30 in this case) is the steady weight of the oil when at 100 degrees C (212 degrees F) and it compares with any other 30 weight grade oil, in viscosity (thickness), regardless of whether it's a 0w-30, 5w-30 or 10w-30. This is an A.S.E standard test which must be passed to be called a particular viscosity grade oil.

For more information about VISCOSITY, check out my Viscosity thread. Here is the LINK (http://www.dakota-durango.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12765).

https://www.amsoil.com/dealer/websites/graphics/amsoilbar.jpg

cloknem

06-28-2006, 03:15 AM

Are you asking about appearance when poured from the bottle, or at operating temperature? Appearance is not of key importance. Amsoil may appear thinner when poured from the bottle - and it may be slightly thinner depending upon which of our Amsoil motor oils you are inquiring about - but it is still the appropriate viscosity grade.

just appearance when poured, thanks.

Amsoil Dealer

06-28-2006, 12:31 PM

just appearance when poured, thanks.
Okay, I hope I answered your question. Appearance is not of key importance.

You know, sometimes I ask myself a similar question. Does Pepsi look thinner than Coke?

I hope you :jester: .

cloknem

06-28-2006, 12:35 PM

Okay, I hope I answered your question. Appearance is not of key importance.

You know, sometimes I ask myself a similar question. Does Pepsi look thinner than Coke?

I hope you :jester: .
i just thought it had something to do with my engine running better. :clap2:

Shatto

07-02-2006, 12:08 AM

N56629,
You asked if there was a company where there are competators next door.
May I humbly suggest you think about that question.
Every city, town, burg, village and place where people live together has examples of that.
Now, if we resided in a Socialist Paradise like Cuba, there wouldn't be need for more than one of anything.
Maybe they don't have exclusive neighborhoods where you live, but it is a fact of life that; "Birds of a Feather," so you find folks with money tend to reside where poor folk can't. Some of those evil rich do, in fact, directly compete with their neighbor in business. I know a number of Amway millionaires living next each other because they are friends.

Point is: SO WHAT?

When I began this thread, the intent was to create a conversation on the merits of the product, based on common parameters, not how it was marketed.

I appreciate the asking how the AMSOIL business is conducted. It doesn't take long to provide anyone asking with the information, even if that person is unable to access it at: www.amsoil.com. That is part of the job of an AMSOIL Dealer.
Repetition may be frustrating to Steve, but answering questions is why he has this site. He is good at it.
The problem is not Steves replies, the problem is people asking questions for purposes other than the gathering of information:

*Amsoil products are proven. Arguers don't accept proof.
*Amsoil saves the user money. Arguers debunk facts with made-up figures and comparisons with totally different products.
*Amsoil has a way for it's customers to buy Amsoil products for less than retail. Arguers talk about saving money at Wal-Mart and Pep-Boys, on non comparative items.
*Amsoil has a way for a person to go into business for themselves, for very little investment and, with hard work build a business that is inheritable as well as very profitable. Arguers stay at "The Factory" and yammer that it can't be true because they don't know about it and don't believe it.

SmokinCummins

07-02-2006, 12:54 AM

I already posted how it does not save money, does that make me a arguer? Do you need to see the actual numbers so they are not made up. I proved it once to myself when I was considering running amsoil, I can prove it again.

I can buy comparable products elsewhere for the same or less than Amsoils special pricing.

There are many proven products out there that are far more "proven" than amsoil.

SmokinCummins

07-02-2006, 12:58 AM

BTW, I have seen enough :spam: on Amsoil websites to realize there is a Ton of misleading ads. That does not make them proof, just a claim. A claim does not make something true, or proof of a products ability to perform. It is simply a claim made by someone who is trying to make a quick buck selling Amsoil.

N56629

07-02-2006, 04:19 AM

When I began this thread, the intent was to create a conversation on the merits of the product, based on common parameters, not how it was marketed.

You blew that when you offered up your non-typical experience as proof that amsoil is a superior product. I showed you to a site that had thousands of vehicles just like yours and no mention of amsoil or any other synthetic oil as being the reason for their longevity. Btw, have you registered your truck yet or are you afraid that they might send a group out to investigate your claims?

Some of those evil rich do, in fact, directly compete with their neighbor in business. I know a number of Amway millionaires living next each other because they are friends.

Since you probably know them and all aspects of their lives, personally, tell me whether they made their millions by selling product or conning others into doing it for them.

Some of those evil rich do, in fact, directly compete with their neighbor in business. I know a number of Amway millionaires living next each other because they are friends.

This is bull because you will simply argue that there is nothing comparable to amsoil.

Amsoil has a way for a person to go into business for themselves, for very little investment and, with hard work build a business that is inheritable as well as very profitable. Arguers stay at "The Factory" and yammer that it can't be true because they don't know about it and don't believe it.

It's really difficult to tell what shatto the amsoil dealer is babbling about here. Anyone and everyone can become an amsoil dealer or pretend dealer just like shatto. Once every user of the product becomes a dealer just so that they can buy the product cheaper there would be no one to sell the product to. I suppose they could all get together in one big circle jerk and sell to each other.

Like I said before, it would really suck to have to buy every thing the amsoil way.